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Serial Numbers

SmallWhiteBox

Regular Member
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Apr 2, 2008
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34
Location
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA
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Would putting black tape over the serial number violate this section?


750.230 Firearms; altering, removing, or obliterating marks of identity; presumption.
Sec. 230. A person who shall wilfully alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or
other mark of identity of a pistol or other firearm, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2
years or fine of not more than $1,000.00. Possession of a firearm upon which the number shall have been altered, removed, or
obliterated, other than an antique firearm as defined by section 231a(2)(a) or (b), shall be presumptive evidence that the pos-
sessor has altered, removed, or obliterated the same.
History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931;—CL 1948, 750.230;—Am. 1976, Act 32, Imd. Eff. Mar. 5, 1976.
Constitutionality: The statutory presumption contained in this section is unconstitutional. People v. Moore, 402 Mich. 538, 266 N.W.2d 145 (1978).
Former law: See section 11 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16760.
 

UnSeen UnKnown

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Traverse City, Michigan, USA
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SmallWhiteBox wrote:
Would putting black tape over the serial number violate this section?


750.230 Firearms; altering, removing, or obliterating marks of identity; presumption.
Sec. 230. A person who shall wilfully alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker, model, manufacturer’s number, or
other mark of identity of a pistol or other firearm, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2
years or fine of not more than $1,000.00. Possession of a firearm upon which the number shall have been altered, removed, or
obliterated, other than an antique firearm as defined by section 231a(2)(a) or (b), shall be presumptive evidence that the pos-
sessor has altered, removed, or obliterated the same.
History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931;—CL 1948, 750.230;—Am. 1976, Act 32, Imd. Eff. Mar. 5, 1976.
Constitutionality: The statutory presumption contained in this section is unconstitutional. People v. Moore, 402 Mich. 538, 266 N.W.2d 145 (1978).
Former law: See section 11 of Act 372 of 1927, being CL 1929, § 16760.
I'd err on the side of caution and not cover it up if your carrying openly, reason being in my opinion that from a distance or casual glance it could appear as if altered.
 

viperar15

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if you look at : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alter?qsrc=2888for the definition of "alter" it does not state altering as being "cover up"

when you place a pistol in a holster normally you end up "covering up" this information.

My OPINION is that it would be ok, since what you are not doing is not permanent. But remember, thats just from dictionary.com -- there "could" be a definition out there saying alter = cover up.....
 

SmallWhiteBox

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custom.45acp wrote:
Maybe this is a dumb question, but why do you want to put tape on the serial number?
To circumvent an officer attempting to run your pistol through the database by claiming it is in plain sight. If they are forced to remove the tape then they are effectively searching you and your property.
 

UnSeen UnKnown

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It seems to me though that by covering it to hide the serial number you would therefore create possible RS due to the suspicous nature of your actions by covering parts of your gun with tape.
 

UnSeen UnKnown

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Agreed, IMO why would you want to create extra hassle if you don't want to granted some may find it odd that people open carry its completely legal and if you didn't obtain the gun illegally or have felonies that would prohibit you from owning it then why would you worry about someone running the numbers unless you have something to hide.
 

Taurus850CIA

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, Michigan, USA
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UnSeen UnKnown wrote:
Agreed, IMO why would you want to create extra hassle if you don't want to granted some may find it odd that people open carry its completely legal and if you didn't obtain the gun illegally or have felonies that would prohibit you from owning it then why would you worry about someone running the numbers unless you have something to hide.
Once your pistol is run, even if it's just "routine", and you have done nothing wrong, it is put into a database that the anti's use and twist to lend credibility to outrageous claims. They automatically assume a pistol is run because the owner/user commited a crime. It's invasion of your privacy, besides. 4th amendment.
 

Taurus850CIA

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, Michigan, USA
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If an LEO has no RS that you have committed a crime, simply decline their request for your firearm. Without RS, they have no right to seize your property. If they already have it, they have already searched and seized, and I don't think a piece of tape is going to stop them.
 

Coelacanth

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Sep 11, 2008
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S.E., Michigan, USA
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Well Dang!
I suppose that means that I'd be a felon for doing a grip chop on my XD... (it would remove the "SA-XD" on the grip). I wonder if sending it off to be done by a shop makes it ok?
I tell you what, I'm about done with these ridiculous rules...
We know they aren't there to make us safer...
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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Fairfax Co., VA
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Taurus850CIA wrote:
If an LEO has no RS that you have committed a crime, simply decline their request for your firearm. Without RS, they have no right to seize your property. If they already have it, they have already searched and seized, and I don't think a piece of tape is going to stop them.

I am not a lawyer.

After a lot of thought, I have concluded that it will be almost impossible to know with sufficient certainty whether the LEO has genuine RAS. All it takes is a 911 call where the caller exaggerated or lied. Or the dispatcher altered the report when passing it on to the LEO.

I am firmly in the camp that automatically refuses consent--verbally only--to any search or seizure, requested or not. This also assumes I have the time for a prolonged detention for standing on my rights, what some police call being uncooperative. For example, if it would make me late to a business appointment, I might be a little more "cooperative."
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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Jan 10, 2007
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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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While this is a bit off topic, it does deal with LEOs running a serial number. This is in California, where you have to OC without a loaded handgun and the cops have the right by law to stop you to check your handgun to determine if it's loaded. The discussion on this tread is are they allowed to run your numbers. There have been some SCOTUS decisions regarding in plain view. And some argue that if the number is in plain view they can run it.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/22819.html

This covering the numbers has been discussed on the national forum and on
MGO. Many felt that covering the number fell under the term altering. But then some guns have camo tape over them, is that altering? Or how about a protective covering?
 

custom.45acp

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Istanbul, , Turkey
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If this is just to prevent someone (LEO) from seeing the serial numbers, then there's another issue. What is he/she doing that close to your (let's say) holstered gun?

Custom.45acp
 

Venator

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custom.45acp wrote:
If this is just to prevent someone (LEO) from seeing the serial numbers, then there's another issue. What is he/she doing that close to your (let's say) holstered gun?

Custom.45acp
In some encounters with LEO in regard to OC the officer does take the gun from the person, sometimes they run the numbers andsometimes not. Remember some LEO's hate OC and will look for ANY thing to bust you, or to at least make the stop as uncomfortable as they can. All to dissuade you from doing it again.
 

SmallWhiteBox

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Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA
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In an effort to clarify my previous post on why I would want to put black tape over the serial number, I will explain exactly what my reasoning is.

The three levels of a police encounter are:

1. Consensual - It's a free country, anyone can talk to anyone and leave at any time. No frisks, searches, arrests, etc. occur during this level

2. Detain - If an officer has 'reasonable articulable suspicion' that a crime has been or will be committed, they can force you to remain in their presence for the time being. During this level, they can perform a pat-down to remove any weapons they may find on you to ensure their safety. They CANNOT search you or your belongings during this level.

This is where the tape comes into play. If you are being detained and the officer decided to pat you down for weapons, they will remove said firearm and hold it until the encounter is over. During this time, the serial number is in plain sight and they can legally run it through any databases they may have. However, if you put tape over the number, it removes the number from plain sight and forces the officer to search your property in order to find the number.

3. Arrest - This is where they have gathered enough evidence that they are charging you with a crime. They CAN search you at this point and the tape is moot.

Hopefully this clarifies my reasoning. And yes, I do own all my firearms and they are properly registered in the unconstitutional database that Michigan keeps.
 
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