imported post
I’ve been asked to post my repliesabout theUSCCA to this group as well.Here aremy 3 main replies. This is aLONG post.
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Post #88 03/12/09
In summary, I thought USCCA was a GROUP that is ACTIVE in the COMMUNITY on 2A issues. The money spent is JUST for the magazine, the website and Tim.
The magazine and the website are NOT the problem. It is that USCCA is branded as an association when it isn't.
If I was buying a SUBSCRIPTION, all would be well. But I wasn't I was buying MEMBERSHIP. There is a big difference. The idea of "membership" is very misleading.
Look at how many people twisted what I said to say that I'm against people making money. Why the need to lie? Why the personal attacks?
When I saw the flyer for Tribial Marketing, BTW, the flyer was named Turn-Mandkinds-Deepest-Need-Into-Cash-TribalMarketing, I felt as though Tim and his marketing people were laughing at me and considered us as nothing more than mindless fools who will pay money to those "in the know" and using this marketing technique.
When my membership pack for the USCCA arrived I was IMPRESSED! I proudly put the "membership" card in my wallet. I though the CD, magazine and other stuff was GREAT. I thought I made a GREAT purchase and joined a group that was serious about Concealed Carry Issues. (Note: I'm sure everyone here IS. But not as a "group.")
But there I am, reading this brochure about Tribal Marketing and there is a list of 25 items of "Membership based benefits" including this note: "(NOTE: Most of these cost almost NOTHING to provide!)" In other words, the supposed "benefits" are just window dressing.
Everything I read about USCCA came into question. Was it all a put on or not? Was Tim's back story real or just part of the program? The booklet says this under: How Do You Create Belief & Belonging? "Must have a killer "Back-Story" that is real. You must share your history." Was it real or just a great line? Makes me question EVERYTHING about Tim, USCCA, Tim's business blog and so on.
There is no "other agenda" with this. Its easy to tell me to get a refund. Its easy to call me names. I didn't expect many to even consider what I said. After all, according to Tim, YOU ALL have a "tribal" urge to belong. I guess that means you would "protect the herd" from a non-believer.
Having a forum where people can meet and discuss issues is a GOOD THING. It is ALSO a good thing that Tim makes money at it! There is NO reason he shouldn't. He just shouldn't call it an association. It is really just a subscription.
But the real issue, the real thing that made me feal "scammed" wasn't ANYTHING about USCCA! The magazine is ok and worth the cost, the website works well and does what I expected. No, it was that these "TRIBAL MARKETING" techniques ACTUALLY WORKED ON ME!!!! They FREAKING WORKED 110% I was a PERFECT EXAMPLE of what I considered a lame, late-night, MLM style, get-rich-quick, marketing scheme!
The more I read about the "tribal" marketing stuff the more I HAVE to agree with the results!
AND THAT is what irks the hell out of me!
Tim, I don't know how good of an engineer you were but you are one HELL of a marketing wiz, while I don't buy your "technical" reasons, you have sure hit upon a winner.
And since I DO want to make money. I'll be looking very closely at your Tribal Marketing. I'd like it better if it wasn't presented in late-night-MLM style. But at least it didn't have photos of you with palm trees and large yachts in the background.
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Post #149 03/14/09
I am NOT canceling my subscription to the USCCA. Let me explain why. I feel that I have gotten value for what I’ve paid. I wanted access to a site that compiles information from many sources and makes it easy for me to get. Similar to why I have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal or the CBOT or a number of paid news and weather sites.
I’ve made my point clear about the term “association.” Tim’s tribal marketing site (
http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org) stands on its own. You can look at for yourself and make your own opinions.
I didn’t intend one of my first (if not my actual first post) to this forum to be such an inflammatory one. But I knew full well what sort of response I was going to get. I find it most childish to be called a liberal and to have people assume I’m against making money when I never said anything to suggest either.
Usually it’s the liberals that resort to name-calling and personal bashing. It is usually liberals who refuse to address the issue and to resort to childish name calling and attack the person but not the argument. It is ok to disagree with my thoughts and to present your positive experience. But it is more like a liberal to “get rid” of someone who doesn’t toe the party line.
So that makes me wonder who is really liberal. (Or just plain childish.)
To those of you who have posted positive comments about Tim and the USCCA, thank you! You have made me feel a lot less cheated than I had when I started this thread. So much so that I decided NOT to cancel my subscription. I can see that even though this is NOT the association I thought it was, there is value to be had. And all kudos to Tim and his moderators, this thread has not been shut down and I have not been banned. That has impressed me and goes along way in making me think better of my experiences here.
Now let me put to rest this silly idea that I’m a liberal, troll, or other low-life. Every single person who as responded to me with pure hate and/or called me a troll has not once countered my assertions and I’m sure have not even bothered to look at the tribal marketing site.
Professionally, I’m also an “entrepreneur.” Not in the modern sense of someone who uses OPM to come up with the next “big thing” usually having something to do with computers, no I’m a contractor. I have small business (Class C corp in Virginia) with 5 employees. We build, service, and maintain, data cabling systems, communication systems and towers. No, I’m not trying to market to anyone because I doubt anyone is looking to spend upwards of $20,000 for a new cell site or $150,000 for a new tower.
My brother and I started our company in 2005 and had to put in every single penny we owned. (And a lot we didn’t have.). At this moment, we are scraping by but are projected to have our breakout year and will gross our first Million late Q2 or early Q3.
On the back of my business card is our unofficial motto: No job is too high, no FEE is too high!
I still and ALWAYS will subscribe to the GREAT AMERICAN philosophy that: GREED IS GOOD. You just need to be ethical about it. And I want EVERYONE to be as wealthy as possible – as long as they earn it and not have it taken from anyone. (NO SOCIALISM!)
Like many others I saw the writing on the wall last Fall. I applied for my CCP on election day after I voted. I was nervous as hell to carry a gun concealed much less open carry until I read the article by Robert Boatman ON THIS SITE! That one article was worth the price of admission.
So I’m planning on being around a bit. While many may have formed a negative opinion of me based on my first thread, so be it. Yea, DID I stir up a hornet’s nest.
But one thing I never do on a board is call someone a “troll”, demand they be banned, tell them to leave, or call them childish names. Does that ever accomplish anything?
That’s all for now.
(Sorry for any spelling errors. Its late and I’m not going for a Pulitzer.)
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Post #158 03/14/09
Hmmm,
Harry, I'll go ahead and post my responses on OC. I first vented on OpenCarry.org because I felt very cheated by USCCA and I wondered if others felt the same. I didn't first post on USCCA because I had a strong feeling that no one would take my viewpoint seriously and would respond with personal attacks, name calling, and maybe even get banned or otherwise censored. Based on the data I read on Tribal Marketing, and my knowledge of internet groups, that was a very real concern. (And mostly vindicated.)
But let me clarify my main points. I feel I can get value out of USCCA. But I still feel it is a bit of a scam. Just that most people who have signed up like the product and feel they get value - including me.
People who have posted the definition of ASSOCIATION are accurate but don't paint a clear picture. Would Tim's methods pass the same test in other areas?
Let's say one parent creates a PTA (Parent & Teachers Association) for a school. Parents pay $50 per year to join. The founder prints a well made magazine and has a good website and forum. Everyone would be happy and proud until they realized it was a "for profit" group for the sole financial benefit of one person.
What if a veteran's association was run the same way?
What about the MDA, AMA, and others. I was able to find 22,432 associations with the word "association" in their names. I would guess that most Associations are not-for-profit corporations where no individual “owns” it. They may run and control it but they are not directly enriched by it. They can be paid well. But don’t get the proceeds from the association.
I understand that an association uses the money it makes to better service the members of the association. I “assumed” that the USCCA was this type of an association. This assumption IS what Tim is counting on when people “join.” His entire production has been crafted not to refute that assumption and to take advantage of it.
What do you think would happen if your community found out that the local PTA was started because the founder was too broke to pave their driveway. Then used proceeds (not salary) from the PTA to pave it, AND to buy the cars on it! Then bragged about making millions doing it!
That’s Tribal Marketing. And that is what Tim says his USCCA is all about.
http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org
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-CharlesC