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U.S Concealed Carry Association is a SCAM!!!

TheMrMitch

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That's odd. I have known of TS and his mag for awhile and didn't think it worth the time........so I never signed up. Too much self hype.

Now....TONIGHT....on another board.....I signed my e mail to get free goodies from him with NO intention of sending any MONEY AT ALL. I do that a lot....bait.

THENI FIND THIS POST....TOO FUNNY.:celebrate
 

smash29

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useful_idiot wrote:
I finally emailed him and said simply, "You send too many emails." :?
I wish that would work on the NRA and their weekly mail requests for donations. I'm not going to leave over it but I know a few people who have and i wonder how much they could save by cutting back on the solicitations even just a little bit.
 

CharlesC

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Here's the "secret" behindTim Schmidt's USCCA site:

http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org/

Basically, we are all degenerates and have a primal, tribal urge to join.

Oh, I posted my thought on the site and talk about a flame war. I am evil incarnate. I've been called a gun-hating liberal, un-americian and I dont' want people to make money.

Not a single person ever challeged me on the merits of my complaint.

Thats all to be expected though.

-CharlesC
 

Dustin

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CharlesC wrote:
I Tim’s TRIBAL Marketing Rule #1
No matter what the subject is for your membership website or association, you’ll probably be able to find a ton of information on this exact subject for FREE on the internet. This discovery may make you ask yourself, “Why would anyone want to PAY for the information that I’ll be providing?” Good question. But, don’t worry. This doesn’t mater! Here’s why. Most of the so-called free informaton is poorly organized and presented. Furthermore, there will always be a segment of society that equates quality and value with price.

Thus, there will always be plenty of people willing to pay for the information they’re searching for if it is properly marketed, organized and presented! So, please DON’T be discouraged by the old “I can find this information for free” thing.

This is not entirely bad you know.

For example, Tony Hortons Training videos. Everything he does on there has been done before. But since his is more organized, and done so in a very particular order, IMO, it's worth the money. Of course I could have found out all the techniques another way, but I didn't feel like it. Plus the videos help with the monkey see monkey do style of wroking out.

So I paid $100 for Tony Hortons Ten minute Trainer and a little equipment. All stuff I might could have found on the internet, but I didn't want to.

The program works, it's easy to follow and well put together. Well worth the money IMO.

This CC programcould probably do the same for someone else.
 

Dustin

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CharlesC wrote:
Here's the "secret" behindTim Schmidt's USCCA site:

http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org/

Basically, we are all degenerates and have a primal, tribal urge to join.

Oh, I posted my thought on the site and talk about a flame war. I am evil incarnate. I've been called a gun-hating liberal, un-americian and I dont' want people to make money.

Not a single person ever challeged me on the merits of my complaint.

Thats all to be expected though.

-CharlesC

Well if it worked for them, who are you to tell them it's BS ?
 

DiscoFever

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It looks like Charles is a member of the USCCA as well, and started a thread over there at 5pm last night. Within 6 hours, it had over 70 posts in it, with ALL BUT TWO from people telling Charles to accept the full, 100% refund that Tim offers to ALL members, and to "please leave". Then, after Tim put his kids to bed, he responded:
-------------------------------


Okay, here we go.

The kids are done with their homework and the two younger ones are in bed. I've got a fresh cup of McDonalds coffee next to me (my kids made me give up Starbucks and beer for Lent... YES, Starbucks AND beer!) so now I'm ready to type.

WARNING: ... this may be a bit of a long post.

First of all, I'd like to address my detractors. Charles (ccrizer) and Kyle (kgtgv4), I personally apologize to the both of you. I am sorry that you feel duped, scammed or whatever. I know this may sound like a broken record, but if you ever want you money back... just say the word. I promise, there will be no hard feelings.

See here' a little MORE background about Tim Schmidt. Sure, you may know SOME of my story. You probably know the part about why, how and when I started USCCA and CCM. But trust me, there are a VERY few people who know the whole blood and guts story.

About 2.5 years after I published that first issue of CCM, I was in a LOT of financial trouble. And the only reason I was in that trouble was because I refused to give up my "dream magazine". So to whoever questioned my commitment to this business or the cause in general, I'd like to think I stuck this thing out LONG after most would quit.

So how bad was it? Well, as many of you know, I started an engineering business (Schmidt Engineering - nice name, huh?) back in 1997. It was a fine business... I wasn't much of a leader at the time, so the business didn't grow much. But it WAS profitable. Well, my little dream magazine was about to DESTROY my engineering business.

I had a line of credit at my local bank for Schmidt Engineering. It was a "demand" line of credit for $100,000. That just meant that I could borrow up to $100k whenever I wanted, but the bank could call anytime and say... give us back our money! Well NOBODY would loan me any money to start a magazine about carrying concealed guns so I just borrowed the money from the line of credit for my engineering business! (If my banker is reading this post... well, sorry for not telling you!)

It didn't take too long to peg that $100k line of credit. (Starting a small, niche magazine is REALLY expensive!) So there I was, 2.5 years and close to $200,000 ($100k of mine and $100k of the banks) invested in a business that was truly my LIFE PASSION... and it was kicking my butt. I'll never forget that night on our front porch. It was 11:30 pm. Tonnie (my wife) and the kids were all in bed. I was sitting there looking at our gravel driveway that we couldn't afford to pave cause I kept spending our money on postage, advertising & printing bills. I prayed. I thought. I got mad.

Well, within the next couple of weeks, 2 things happened that truly changed my life. (It may not seem like it in the beginning... but BOTH of these things have a direct impact on YOU and USCCA, so I hope you'll stay with me here!)

Here's the first thing. I happened across a website on the internet that was JUST like the one that Charles and Kyle don't like (My "Tribal Marketing" website - BTW, this site just went live today). So I'm on this website and I'm reading about some DVD course that claims to teach you all about marketing on the internet. The course cost close to $2,000 and the guy who was selling it was named Yanik Silver. I had never heard of this guy and I didn't know much at all about marketing or internet marketing. My first impression was that the website was cheesy... it seemed like an infomercial... the graphics were terrible and the sales pitch was relentless!

But guess what... the website was convincing. The website was VERY persuasive. And you know what? I bought that $2,000 DVD internet marketing course with money I didn't have. I was desperate. And then I went back to work trying to keep BOTH my engineering and magazine businesses from going under.

Well, a week later this "magic" internet marketing course showed up. The production quality was poor, the packaging wasn't all that great either. My initial feeling was that I was getting scammed. But I persevered. I decided to give this info a fair shake. So I proceeded to lock myself in my office for the next 7 hours. I literally devoured this stuff. In hindsight, this Yanik guy just basically outlined every basic principle of direct response marketing. I mean these principles have been around for decades (if not centuries!). But it was EXACTLY what I needed to hear. Little did I know, but what I had just done would be the catalyst that would SAVE Concealed Carry Magazine from certain death.

--- Wow, this IS getting really long. I'll try to wrap it up! ---

So I proceeded to completely revamp EVERY marketing aspect of CCM. This was when I did the second thing that I mentioned above. This was when I decided to create the USCCA. Sure, the USCCA logo had been on the cover of the magazine from day one... but it was mostly just a figment of my imagination. There was no member interaction, member communication or cohesiveness. In the beginning, it was just a logo!

I'd like to tell you that things changed overnight. But they didn't. Nope. It took awhile to dig out of the hole that I had dug! But I got out. WE got out. And ever since that day in my office with that $2,000 stack of DVDs that looked like they had been produced by a bunch of 7th graders... I have NEVER stopped investing in my direct response marketing education. You see, without the marketing, the USCCA and CCM would NOT exist.

Marketing isn't BAD. It is simply a tool. It is a powerful tool that can be used for GOOD or BAD. (huh, kinda like a gun!) Sure, there are a TON of people who learn how to persuade and then use it for bad. These people are all flashes in the pan. Heck, I've met a bunch of them. They're always up to something new... trying to escape the last batch of customers they pissed off. But there are also a LOT of brilliant marketers who build long-term businesses that are built on giving their customers a LOT more value than they've paid for.

So where does that get us so far? Oh yeah, the blood and guts story of Tim Schmidt, CCM and USCCA.

So last October a good friend of mine asked me if I'd give a short talk at his "Membership Website" seminar. As a favor to a friend, I agreed to help him out. (Trust me, speaking in front of a big crowd does NOT come easy for an engineer!) My presentation went well. Mostly because I over prepared. My high school football coach would always yell at me, "Schmidt, I told you that Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance!" But, something happened AFTER the presentation that I simply wasn't expecting....

I was literally mobbed by people who wanted to talk to me. Some of them told me that I had inspired them, some wanted advice, some wanted to just talk about their ideas. Let me tell you, the feeling of being able to have such a positive impact on so many people was intoxicating. It was then that I decided to start yet ANOTHER business where I would help people to do what I've done.

For example, right now I'm working with a couple who is starting an association for couples that struggle with infertility. This couple went through 7 years of hell and they want to share their story. I just got done helping a woman set up The Association of Work at Home Women. I'm also helping a friend help set up the Video Marketing Association. Heck, there are a bunch of others... And since a few thousand USCCA members are business owners themselves, I thought I'd share my new venture with them. I am not embarrassed or ashamed in the least. I am proud and stand behind everything I do. Heck, there just MAY be some of YOU I could help out. Guys, the association business model is a FANTASTIC model. It literally SAVED this business. And it's NOT fake. You simply can't fake this stuff. People have VERY sensitive "B.S.-Meters" when it comes to associations. If you're not genuine about what you're doing, people will smell it a MILE away! But I digress...

Here's the bottom line guys.

I risked everything I have to make CCM and the USCCA work. Furthermore, some of my closest friends and confidants are fellow USCCA members. I am VERY proud of CCM, USCCA and every single one of its members. Being in my position, I don't have the luxury of losing my temper and yelling at people who call me a scam artist and/or dishonest. So a big THANK YOU to those of you who defended me on this thread. But as you can tell by the length and depth of this post, my skin is still very thin... and I still take EVERY single negative post, email and comment personally. (I really have to work on this!)

So I will end with this. Thanks to each and every one of you. Thank you for being man (and woman) enough to carry a gun. Thank you for giving me the chance to make you a happy customer. And finally, thank you for reading this note.

Sincerely, __________________
Tim Schmidt
U.S. Concealed Carry
 

DiscoFever

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CharlesC wrote:
Here's the "secret" behindTim Schmidt's USCCA site:

http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org/

Basically, we are all degenerates and have a primal, tribal urge to join.

Oh, I posted my thought on the site and talk about a flame war. I am evil incarnate. I've been called a gun-hating liberal, un-americian and I dont' want people to make money.

Not a single person ever challeged me on the merits of my complaint.

Thats all to be expected though.

-CharlesC

Not a single person challenged you on the merit of your complaint????

LOL!!

TONS of people responded to you, saying that this marketing tactic DOESN'T make them degenerates, it just makes Tim SMART for figuring out what works!

Man, I posted that last message with Tim's response before I read this.

Charles- at first, I just thought you were a man, mistaken with misinformation. But a man doesn't post something like this. Anyway, I'm not going to get into it with you. I see what's going on here.

I'm out of here... I probably shouldn't be hanging out in the Virginia forum anyway, lol.

Be dangerous, everyone.

-Disco
 

compmanio365

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Hmm, never heard of this association. I dunno if what he's doing is a scam or not, but if he truly is offering a no questions asked money back guarantee, and he delivers on it, it can't really be that bad of a scam now can it? You try it, don't like it, then you get your money back.....sounds pretty fair to me. What this group is or is not doing is besides the point it seems.
 

TatankaGap

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This is the open carry forum - why so much dialogue here about a conceal carry association?

I like to read and dialogue on both boards ~ fact is the vast majority of people on that forum are responsible gun owners and I have a lot to learn and I like to dialogue with them.

I enjoy the purity of this forum ~ after all open carry is what RKBA is all about ~

Let's take all the energy from this thread and use it to squash the proposed weapons ban!!!! :dude:
 

Grapeshot

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You want to see high pressure salesmanship at its worst.

You want to see your mailbox filled with junk mail - worse than the NRA.

Register but don't join/pay and reap the rewards. :shock:

I don't care that he was a right to make money or is a sincere person - I don't like his style and don't need the redundancy.

Just my 2 cents - you make your own choices.

Yata hey
 

Harry Dresden

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Charles, I saw your post over at USCCA and chose not to respond to it because of the large number of posts already there, but I feel I must correct you on one point.

The forum has no ads anywhere on it. (Using google chrome, unmodded)

I also think you should post the same comment you put on the uscca forums as to why you decided to stay.

One final note:

Over the last several years, I've worked for many people in so many sales markets for so many products and services that it would make your mind hurt if I could ignore my NDAs and tell you all about them.

Nearly all of them had the same cardinal rule: You do NOT talk about your marketing strategies with your clients.

You are a textbook example given as to why.

You feel that you have been cheated, even though you stated on uscca that you found good value in the website and would maintain your subscription. But think on this: If you never pondered the marketing strategy, your unbiased opinion on the website would be dramatically different than it is now.

Now, moving on to his marketing strategies...

From the advertising it seems very similar in approach but far different in presentation. The difference in the presentation of his approach can be identified by Tim's background.

The totality of all the other approaches I've seen and used were presented by salesmen, for salesmen.

Tim's approach is by an engineer (him), for non-salesmen.

This is not to say salesmen without background could not benefit from it; far from it! I personally prefer his approach. But in his explaining the reasoning on Why Stuff Works as he did from a more engineer perspective rather than a sales perspective, it is now quite possible he could become a victim of his own bad marketing.

By way of example in terms familiar with everyone here:

Let us say you get involved in a shooting, you shot a home invader 3 times with your .45ACP Glock.

The police show up and ask their kind questions as to why you felt the fine upstanding home invader had to die.

Bad answer: He crossed my door threshold so I killed him. Two in the chest, one in the head to be sure.

Good answer (coached by your lawyer that is present (your marketer! His job is to sell you to the police and to the Jury!)):Officer, this intruder rang my doorbell, and when I opened the door he rushed me! I was rushing back yelling for him to leave but he kept coming for me, and I was forced to shoot him until he stopped coming for me. I've never been so afraid in my life! (etc., etc.)

Both of these answers are true statements. One of them will keep you out of jail and out of civil/criminal penalties.

As strong individualists (95%+ of all 2a supporters), we abhor the need for salesmen and lawyers. However, they are the lifeblood of society and they are the only way for us to co-exist with our more collectivist brethren.

Complaining about his sales tactics when you as much admit that you got precisely what you were presented and you admit that you get value from the product is... I can't think of the word at the moment. Someone help me here (it's 3AM here).

Now, all that being said...

I find the need to apologize for everyone at the USCCA that called you a troll. I understand why they did, and I'll explain why they did.

If I go to a linux forum and start a forum post with: "Linux sucks because..."

It does not matter how well presented my argument is. I just set of everyone's troll sensors, bs detectors, and other tactical defense measures internet forum posters have developed over several years of internet exposure. It was nothing against you; it was a defense against a perceived attack.

That being said, ignorance is no excuse for bad manners. My apologies for the vitriol you had to endure.

That's all for now. Mab just kicked in my front door and wants to have a conversa-
 

Grapeshot

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Doug Huffman wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
Fill in the blanks:
A ______________ and his ______________ are soon _______________
Bears repeating! Enlightened greed is a core conservative value.
But in this case you get kissed afterwards......if you ask for it. :)

Yata hey
 

Grapeshot

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Doug Huffman wrote:
To you with your wider political view, I recommend the movie Sunshine (1999, Szabo).
Offer a better snake oil - Sonnenschein.

Yata hey
 

CharlesC

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I’ve been asked to post my repliesabout theUSCCA to this group as well.Here aremy 3 main replies. This is aLONG post.

******
Post #88 03/12/09
In summary, I thought USCCA was a GROUP that is ACTIVE in the COMMUNITY on 2A issues. The money spent is JUST for the magazine, the website and Tim.

The magazine and the website are NOT the problem. It is that USCCA is branded as an association when it isn't.

If I was buying a SUBSCRIPTION, all would be well. But I wasn't I was buying MEMBERSHIP. There is a big difference. The idea of "membership" is very misleading.

Look at how many people twisted what I said to say that I'm against people making money. Why the need to lie? Why the personal attacks?

When I saw the flyer for Tribial Marketing, BTW, the flyer was named Turn-Mandkinds-Deepest-Need-Into-Cash-TribalMarketing, I felt as though Tim and his marketing people were laughing at me and considered us as nothing more than mindless fools who will pay money to those "in the know" and using this marketing technique.

When my membership pack for the USCCA arrived I was IMPRESSED! I proudly put the "membership" card in my wallet. I though the CD, magazine and other stuff was GREAT. I thought I made a GREAT purchase and joined a group that was serious about Concealed Carry Issues. (Note: I'm sure everyone here IS. But not as a "group.")

But there I am, reading this brochure about Tribal Marketing and there is a list of 25 items of "Membership based benefits" including this note: "(NOTE: Most of these cost almost NOTHING to provide!)" In other words, the supposed "benefits" are just window dressing.

Everything I read about USCCA came into question. Was it all a put on or not? Was Tim's back story real or just part of the program? The booklet says this under: How Do You Create Belief & Belonging? "Must have a killer "Back-Story" that is real. You must share your history." Was it real or just a great line? Makes me question EVERYTHING about Tim, USCCA, Tim's business blog and so on.

There is no "other agenda" with this. Its easy to tell me to get a refund. Its easy to call me names. I didn't expect many to even consider what I said. After all, according to Tim, YOU ALL have a "tribal" urge to belong. I guess that means you would "protect the herd" from a non-believer.

Having a forum where people can meet and discuss issues is a GOOD THING. It is ALSO a good thing that Tim makes money at it! There is NO reason he shouldn't. He just shouldn't call it an association. It is really just a subscription.

But the real issue, the real thing that made me feal "scammed" wasn't ANYTHING about USCCA! The magazine is ok and worth the cost, the website works well and does what I expected. No, it was that these "TRIBAL MARKETING" techniques ACTUALLY WORKED ON ME!!!! They FREAKING WORKED 110% I was a PERFECT EXAMPLE of what I considered a lame, late-night, MLM style, get-rich-quick, marketing scheme!

The more I read about the "tribal" marketing stuff the more I HAVE to agree with the results!

AND THAT is what irks the hell out of me!

Tim, I don't know how good of an engineer you were but you are one HELL of a marketing wiz, while I don't buy your "technical" reasons, you have sure hit upon a winner.

And since I DO want to make money. I'll be looking very closely at your Tribal Marketing. I'd like it better if it wasn't presented in late-night-MLM style. But at least it didn't have photos of you with palm trees and large yachts in the background.

*****

Post #149 03/14/09
I am NOT canceling my subscription to the USCCA. Let me explain why. I feel that I have gotten value for what I’ve paid. I wanted access to a site that compiles information from many sources and makes it easy for me to get. Similar to why I have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal or the CBOT or a number of paid news and weather sites.

I’ve made my point clear about the term “association.” Tim’s tribal marketing site (http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org) stands on its own. You can look at for yourself and make your own opinions.

I didn’t intend one of my first (if not my actual first post) to this forum to be such an inflammatory one. But I knew full well what sort of response I was going to get. I find it most childish to be called a liberal and to have people assume I’m against making money when I never said anything to suggest either.

Usually it’s the liberals that resort to name-calling and personal bashing. It is usually liberals who refuse to address the issue and to resort to childish name calling and attack the person but not the argument. It is ok to disagree with my thoughts and to present your positive experience. But it is more like a liberal to “get rid” of someone who doesn’t toe the party line.

So that makes me wonder who is really liberal. (Or just plain childish.)

To those of you who have posted positive comments about Tim and the USCCA, thank you! You have made me feel a lot less cheated than I had when I started this thread. So much so that I decided NOT to cancel my subscription. I can see that even though this is NOT the association I thought it was, there is value to be had. And all kudos to Tim and his moderators, this thread has not been shut down and I have not been banned. That has impressed me and goes along way in making me think better of my experiences here.

Now let me put to rest this silly idea that I’m a liberal, troll, or other low-life. Every single person who as responded to me with pure hate and/or called me a troll has not once countered my assertions and I’m sure have not even bothered to look at the tribal marketing site.

Professionally, I’m also an “entrepreneur.” Not in the modern sense of someone who uses OPM to come up with the next “big thing” usually having something to do with computers, no I’m a contractor. I have small business (Class C corp in Virginia) with 5 employees. We build, service, and maintain, data cabling systems, communication systems and towers. No, I’m not trying to market to anyone because I doubt anyone is looking to spend upwards of $20,000 for a new cell site or $150,000 for a new tower.

My brother and I started our company in 2005 and had to put in every single penny we owned. (And a lot we didn’t have.). At this moment, we are scraping by but are projected to have our breakout year and will gross our first Million late Q2 or early Q3.

On the back of my business card is our unofficial motto: No job is too high, no FEE is too high!

I still and ALWAYS will subscribe to the GREAT AMERICAN philosophy that: GREED IS GOOD. You just need to be ethical about it. And I want EVERYONE to be as wealthy as possible – as long as they earn it and not have it taken from anyone. (NO SOCIALISM!)

Like many others I saw the writing on the wall last Fall. I applied for my CCP on election day after I voted. I was nervous as hell to carry a gun concealed much less open carry until I read the article by Robert Boatman ON THIS SITE! That one article was worth the price of admission.

So I’m planning on being around a bit. While many may have formed a negative opinion of me based on my first thread, so be it. Yea, DID I stir up a hornet’s nest.
But one thing I never do on a board is call someone a “troll”, demand they be banned, tell them to leave, or call them childish names. Does that ever accomplish anything?

That’s all for now.

(Sorry for any spelling errors. Its late and I’m not going for a Pulitzer.)

*****
Post #158 03/14/09
Hmmm,

Harry, I'll go ahead and post my responses on OC. I first vented on OpenCarry.org because I felt very cheated by USCCA and I wondered if others felt the same. I didn't first post on USCCA because I had a strong feeling that no one would take my viewpoint seriously and would respond with personal attacks, name calling, and maybe even get banned or otherwise censored. Based on the data I read on Tribal Marketing, and my knowledge of internet groups, that was a very real concern. (And mostly vindicated.)

But let me clarify my main points. I feel I can get value out of USCCA. But I still feel it is a bit of a scam. Just that most people who have signed up like the product and feel they get value - including me.

People who have posted the definition of ASSOCIATION are accurate but don't paint a clear picture. Would Tim's methods pass the same test in other areas?

Let's say one parent creates a PTA (Parent & Teachers Association) for a school. Parents pay $50 per year to join. The founder prints a well made magazine and has a good website and forum. Everyone would be happy and proud until they realized it was a "for profit" group for the sole financial benefit of one person.

What if a veteran's association was run the same way?
What about the MDA, AMA, and others. I was able to find 22,432 associations with the word "association" in their names. I would guess that most Associations are not-for-profit corporations where no individual “owns” it. They may run and control it but they are not directly enriched by it. They can be paid well. But don’t get the proceeds from the association.

I understand that an association uses the money it makes to better service the members of the association. I “assumed” that the USCCA was this type of an association. This assumption IS what Tim is counting on when people “join.” His entire production has been crafted not to refute that assumption and to take advantage of it.

What do you think would happen if your community found out that the local PTA was started because the founder was too broke to pave their driveway. Then used proceeds (not salary) from the PTA to pave it, AND to buy the cars on it! Then bragged about making millions doing it!

That’s Tribal Marketing. And that is what Tim says his USCCA is all about.
http://www.tribalmarketingassociation.org

*****

-CharlesC
 
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