Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Involuntarily detained in Nashua 03/12

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    03/12/2009 5:45 PM

    Walking from my house in Nashua to Bank of America on Main St I was stopped by Nashua PD who noticed my OC firearm. He demanded my ID which I informed him I was not carrying. I explained I did not consent to being detained and asked if I was free to go. Officer Geoff Raby (email is rabyg@nashuapd.com) stopped me at the corner of Pearl & Temple.

    He explained that I was not being detained under suspicion of any crime, but because I was OC. I replied again that I did not consent to being detained and he indicated that I was not free to go. Knowing NH has a draconian stop and identify statute, I opted to cooperate as required and provided my name and address (only stating Nashua, not providing my street address).

    His backup, Officer N Welch arrived on the scene and watched over me while Mr Raby "ran my info". Raby came back and informed me he couldn't find me in the system. I told him that's because I don't have a drivers license....which is why I was WALKING to the bank in 30 degree weather. I asked him why he was harassing a law abiding citizen. He explained it would only be harassment if he stopped me again. I said being held against my will qualifies as harassment in my book.

    Responding to his insistence I provide additional information to identify myself to his satisfaction, I furnished my ATM card. This didn't satisfy him and he proceeded to ask me additional questions. His partner asked why I had such a bad attitude. I told him I was cold and I was in a hurry and I didn't appreciate being interrogated for merely walking down the street minding my own business.

    After another few minutes, their supervisor appeared, Sgt A Testaverde. He proceeded to educate me on the law explaining that I did not have the right to remain silent. He said that I only had the right to remain silent if I were arrested, and that I was only being detained, so I had no such right. I laughed asking why he thought the 5th amendment applied only to those under arrest and not to all citizens? His response was that the 5th amendment does not cover my right to remain silent and that the 5th amendment applies only when you're standing in court in front of a judge.

    At this point, I was quite irritated and repeated that I did not consent to being detained and asked if I was free to go. Raby told me I would be free to go once he was done with me and not until.

    Sgt Testaverde, agreeing to continue illegally detaining me against my will, instructed his officer Raby to "run him in Mass" hoping to find a hit. I once again stated I had no driver license. While Raby ran me a SECOND time, the Sgt lectured me that I was scaring other citizens and that I shouldn't carry "like that".

    Raby came back and asked which bank I was going to, in case he got any calls from concerned citizens. I showed him the Bank of America ATM card again and told him I already answered that question. He said I was free to go.

    On the quarter mile walk to the bank, I was passed three more times by Nashua cruisers. I entered the ATM area and deposited my checks. Seeing my firearm, another patron with her daughter managed to get beyond their extreme fear and entered the ATM area behind me.

    I walked the mile back home and didn't notice another cruiser the whole way. That is, until I got to my house, when I saw a cruiser sneaking up very slowly on a side street. Inside, an officer appeared to be taking photographs of me entering my home. I ran inside and grabbed my cell phone, where I snapped the attached photos. They're not very good quality, but they do convey the point.

    Overall, a very poorly managed encounter by the Nashua PD and one which has my blood boiling.

    Tim

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    Photo 2


  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    Photo 3

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    You're from Nashua, but list your location as Las Vegas?

    How's the ACLU around your area? Are there any NH gun groups you can contact?

    File a complaint, and follow up on it. Go to the city council/city attorney if necessary.

    Check to see if there is an attorney who would represent you in a matter of false arrest.

    I would have zipped my lips after giving the officers my name/address/whatever you are required to give.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    Profile updated. Just relocated from Las Vegas to Nashua.

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    I forgot,get yourself a voice and if possible, video recorder.

    Carry on!!

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    There will be an OC litter pickup on Sunday 03/15 at 1PM in protest. See:

    http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=17402.0

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    The south land
    Posts
    1,230

    Post imported post

    timf343 wrote:
    03/12/2009 5:45 PM

    Walking from my house in Nashua to Bank of America on Main St I was stopped by Nashua PD who noticed my OC firearm. He demanded my ID which I informed him I was not carrying. I explained I did not consent to being detained and asked if I was free to go. Officer Geoff Raby (email is rabyg@nashuapd.com) stopped me at the corner of Pearl & Temple.

    He explained that I was not being detained under suspicion of any crime, but because I was OC. I replied again that I did not consent to being detained and he indicated that I was not free to go. Knowing NH has a draconian stop and identify statute, I opted to cooperate as required and provided my name and address (only stating Nashua, not providing my street address).

    His backup, Officer N Welch arrived on the scene and watched over me while Mr Raby "ran my info". Raby came back and informed me he couldn't find me in the system. I told him that's because I don't have a drivers license....which is why I was WALKING to the bank in 30 degree weather. I asked him why he was harassing a law abiding citizen. He explained it would only be harassment if he stopped me again. I said being held against my will qualifies as harassment in my book.

    Responding to his insistence I provide additional information to identify myself to his satisfaction, I furnished my ATM card. This didn't satisfy him and he proceeded to ask me additional questions. His partner asked why I had such a bad attitude. I told him I was cold and I was in a hurry and I didn't appreciate being interrogated for merely walking down the street minding my own business.

    After another few minutes, their supervisor appeared, Sgt A Testaverde. He proceeded to educate me on the law explaining that I did not have the right to remain silent. He said that I only had the right to remain silent if I were arrested, and that I was only being detained, so I had no such right. I laughed asking why he thought the 5th amendment applied only to those under arrest and not to all citizens? His response was that the 5th amendment does not cover my right to remain silent and that the 5th amendment applies only when you're standing in court in front of a judge.

    At this point, I was quite irritated and repeated that I did not consent to being detained and asked if I was free to go. Raby told me I would be free to go once he was done with me and not until.

    Sgt Testaverde, agreeing to continue illegally detaining me against my will, instructed his officer Raby to "run him in Mass" hoping to find a hit. I once again stated I had no driver license. While Raby ran me a SECOND time, the Sgt lectured me that I was scaring other citizens and that I shouldn't carry "like that".

    Raby came back and asked which bank I was going to, in case he got any calls from concerned citizens. I showed him the Bank of America ATM card again and told him I already answered that question. He said I was free to go.

    On the quarter mile walk to the bank, I was passed three more times by Nashua cruisers. I entered the ATM area and deposited my checks. Seeing my firearm, another patron with her daughter managed to get beyond their extreme fear and entered the ATM area behind me.

    I walked the mile back home and didn't notice another cruiser the whole way. That is, until I got to my house, when I saw a cruiser sneaking up very slowly on a side street. Inside, an officer appeared to be taking photographs of me entering my home. I ran inside and grabbed my cell phone, where I snapped the attached photos. They're not very good quality, but they do convey the point.

    Overall, a very poorly managed encounter by the Nashua PD and one which has my blood boiling.

    Tim
    My advice: Get a good lawyer, and prepare to retire, if even for a few years from the money you will receive from the city of Nashua, NH. Second, get a GOOD digital recorder, and where possible, never travel alone--that way you have a witness to the upcoming harassment.

    Third, file a complaint with the local State Bureau of Investigation for harassment against the officers...filing with the local PD will get you no where....

    and be ready to file a complaint with the FBI when they violate your civil rights again, but again--have it on tape and have a witness to their crimes.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Set 'em straight, Timf343.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire, ,
    Posts
    156

    Post imported post

    I'll try to make the litter pickup.



    After another few minutes, their supervisor appeared, Sgt A Testaverde. He proceeded to educate me on the law explaining that I did not have the right to remain silent. He said that I only had the right to remain silent if I were arrested, and that I was only being detained, so I had no such right. I laughed asking why he thought the 5th amendment applied only to those under arrest and not to all citizens? His response was that the 5th amendment does not cover my right to remain silent and that the 5th amendment applies only when you're standing in court in front of a judge.
    Ha ha!! This a classic example of how police officers don't know jack about the law. First, the question isn't whether you have the right to remain silent. The question is whether the police have the right to force you to talk. Except to state your name, address, where you're going and what you're doing (required under NH law once you are detained), they don't have any such right. You are not obligated to talk to police before or after arrest.

    Regarding talking to police in general, see this video.



    By the way, the fact that the officer ADMITTED that you weren't being stopped on suspicion of a crime but merely for OCing is all you need to know that the stop was 100% illegal. The officers need reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime being committed or about to be committed in order to stop (Terry v. Ohio). Carrying a gun is not that. The OC litter pickup should drive the point home that any further abuses will get more open carry, not less.


    First step: file a Freedom of Information Request under RSA 91-A. You might consider using this website as a resource. You should request any and all records pertaining to the stop of <your name> which occurred on <date> at <time> at <location> for open carrying a firearm. These records should include any 911 complaints if any relating to the incident, any police reports, text messages or e-mails pertaining to the incident, as well as any radiocommunication about the incident.

    Find out where you are supposed to file the request. Some require it to be filed with internal affairs, others at city hall, etc. Call the Nashua PD to find out. I'd have to read the statute again, but Ibelieve they have five days to respond (either to approve, deny with reason, or explain how much time they will need). If they won't turn over the records, we will work on a writ of mandamus...we'll cross that bridge if we get there.

    Once you get the records, we will work on drafting a complaint for you unlawful detention and violation of civil rights under color of law. Depending on how the police respond will determine how we respond from there.

    Post any questions here and we'll try to help you with the process. You are the first NH person to take this full route that I know of so you will be the guinea pig for future victims of police abuse.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    Here is the FOIA letter I have drafted


    March 12, 2009

    This request is being made pursuant to N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. sec. 91-A:1 to 91-A:9.

    I am requesting the following information related to an incident that occurred March 12, 2009 at approximately 5:45 PM near the intersection of Pearl & Temple St in Nashua.

    Involved in the stop were the following officers:

    • Geoff Raby
    • Welch (possibly alternate spelling)
    • Testaverde (possibly alternate spelling)

    Please provide copies of the following:

    • Cruiser dashboard camera footage
    • Other video or audio recordings
    • Related reports filed by any officer in the department
    • Emails or other written communication between any department personnel related to the incident (at least one email is known to exist)
    • Chat transcripts or other communication transcripts with dispatch or officers
    • Any photographs taken by an officer (a cruiser followed me home and was noted observing me possibly photographing from the intersection of (removed))
    • Dispatch logs related to the incident
    • Any other information related to the incident
    • Any non-classified reports taken in the entire City of Nashua between 5:30 PM and 7:00 PM on March 12, 2009
    o If police reports are deemed classified, the above noted request is for any non-classified information from those reports
    o At the minimum, I expect a list of all police incidents, dispatches, calls, etc. during that time period
    • Department policy regarding Open Carry of firearms
    • All department policies regarding firearms

    If necessary, I will pay for all reasonable and customary duplication and research charges related to this request, up to $100.00, but I am requesting an exemption from the fees pursuant to RSA 91-A. If the charges are expected to exceed $100.00, please provide an itemized list of the information available and the expected charge for each component. If an exemption is being claimed, please identify the specific statutory exemption you are claiming and release all otherwise non-exempt information.

    I am requesting this information within a reasonable time and in electronic format to minimize costs and duplication efforts. Please let me know if you will not have the request information available by March 27, 2009

  12. #12
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire, ,
    Posts
    156

    Post imported post

    Looks good. I would add a short summation of what happened. Mention that you were stopped by open carry, by which officer and then which officers showed up later. It will make it easier for them to determine exactly which incident you are talking about.

    I wouldn't ask for all non-classified reports during that time period. That's a ton of paper that will cost you a pretty penny.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    It looks like you have things under control.

    Please post a link on this thread to a new thread you might create here on OCDO, or the fact that a linked thread at NHU has been updated.

    I'd like to keep an eye on this.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,509

    Post imported post

    Good job, Tim. Thanks for the report. I first learned of it on NHundeground, but I'll be following it here as well.


  15. #15
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    1,896

    Post imported post

    Tim,

    This is a FOIA request, NOT a complaint. Keep on task here with the FIOA and file a complaint AFTER you have everything you think you can get via FIOA. Once you file a complaint, FIOA is closed on the matter "due to ongoing investigation". I fixed your request:

    March 12, 2009



    This request is being made pursuant to N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. sec. 91-A:1 to 91-A:9.



    I am requesting the following information:




    1. Cruiser dashboard camera footage for Officer Raby, Welch, and Testeverde between 5pm and 8pm, March 12th.

    2. Other video or audio or electronic recordings from same officers between 5pm and 8pm, March 12th.

    3. Chat transcripts or other communication transcriptsof all officers and dispatchbetween 5pm and 8pm, March 12th.

    4. Emails or other written communication between any department personnel related responce to a "Man With A Gun".

    5. All photographs taken by any officer between 5pm and 8pm, March 12th.

    6. Dispatch logs between 5pm and 8pm, March 12th.

    7. All department policies regarding firearms.

    If necessary, I will pay for all reasonable and customary duplication and research charges related to this request, up to $100.00, but I am requesting an exemption from the fees pursuant to RSA 91-A. If the charges are expected to exceed $100.00, please provide an itemized list of the information available and the expected charge for each component. If an exemption is being claimed, please identify the specific statutory exemption you are claiming and release all otherwise non-exempt information.



    I am requesting this information within a reasonable time and in electronic format to minimize costs and duplication efforts. Please let me know if you will not have the requested information available by March 27, 2009




  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,238

    Post imported post

    Wow, didn't we supposedly fix the Nashua problem months ago?

    Contact mvpel.

  17. #17
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Swanzey,NH, ,
    Posts
    218

    Post imported post

    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Wow, didn't we supposedly fix the Nashua problem months ago?

    Contact mvpel.
    This is one PD I WILL BASH, THEY ARE A BUNCH OF GOONS

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Tim,

    This is a FOIA request, NOT a complaint. Keep on task here with the FIOA and file a complaint AFTER you have everything you think you can get via FIOA. Once you file a complaint, FIOA is closed on the matter "due to ongoing investigation". I fixed your request:
    <snip>
    Thanks for the edits! I've made the changes to my letter. I'll call the dept and ask where to send it.

    Tim

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,509

    Post imported post

    BB62 wrote:
    I forgot,get yourself a voice and if possible, video recorder.
    This is bad advice in NH, because recording someone without their knowledge is "felony wiretapping" under RSA 570.

    http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...-a/570-a-1.htm

    Recording someone with their knowledge but without their consent should be okay according to the black letter of the law (they no longer have an "expectation of privacy"), but the attorney general and almost all police believe actual consent is required.

    Edit: link to RSA

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    KBCraig wrote:
    BB62 wrote:
    I forgot,get yourself a voice and if possible, video recorder.
    This is bad advice in NH, because recording someone without their knowledge is "felony wiretapping" under RSA 159.

    Recording someone with their knowledge but without their consent should be okay according to the black letter of the law (they no longer have an "expectation of privacy"), but the attorney general and almost all police believe actual consent is required.
    Quoted to highlight important information.

    Good catch, KBCraig!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887

    Post imported post

    KBCraig wrote:
    BB62 wrote:
    I forgot,get yourself a voice and if possible, video recorder.
    This is bad advice in NH, because recording someone without their knowledge is "felony wiretapping" under RSA 570.

    http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...-a/570-a-1.htm

    Recording someone with their knowledge but without their consent should be okay according to the black letter of the law (they no longer have an "expectation of privacy"), but the attorney general and almost all police believe actual consent is required.

    Edit: link to RSA
    Looks like another thing for you New Hamshirites to go after!

    The LEOs can record you, but you can't, eh?

    In that case, I would utilize my 5th Amendment right, and let them know that only under the circumstance that they understand and agree to my recording the interaction would I have ANYTHING (except what NH law requires) to say to them.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    BB62 wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    BB62 wrote:
    I forgot,get yourself a voice and if possible, video recorder.
    This is bad advice in NH, because recording someone without their knowledge is "felony wiretapping" under RSA 570.

    http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...-a/570-a-1.htm

    Recording someone with their knowledge but without their consent should be okay according to the black letter of the law (they no longer have an "expectation of privacy"), but the attorney general and almost all police believe actual consent is required.

    Edit: link to RSA
    Looks like another thing for you New Hamshirites to go after!

    The LEOs can record you, but you can't, eh?

    In that case, I would utilize my 5th Amendment right, and let them know that only under the circumstance that they understand and agree to my recording the interaction would I have ANYTHING (except what NH law requires) to say to them.
    Oh, yes!!!!

    And, having obtained that agreement on the recording, the only thing I would say is, "Oh, I never talk to police."


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    146

    Post imported post

    it's funny. I was just in Nashua attending the liberty forum and there was at least 10 or so people carrying openly in the hotel at all times. I don't know if there were any complaints but I know the cops never showed up.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
    Posts
    1,413

    Post imported post

    A very successful turnout today! One person was able to count 28 of us picking up litter in downtown Nashua.

    No problems from the police whatsoever. I walked to & from the meet, a mile each way, and no problems.

    A curious passerby had a scanner in his car and was able to hear police keeping close tabs on us however.

    I'm hooked! I think there's a litter pickup next Sunday in Concord and my wife and I will probably be there.

    The weather cooperated, and in fact some of us were hot.

  25. #25
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire, ,
    Posts
    156

    Post imported post

    timf343 wrote:
    A very successful turnout today! One person was able to count 28 of us picking up litter in downtown Nashua.

    No problems from the police whatsoever. I walked to & from the meet, a mile each way, and no problems.

    A curious passerby had a scanner in his car and was able to hear police keeping close tabs on us however.

    I'm hooked! I think there's a litter pickup next Sunday in Concord and my wife and I will probably be there.

    The weather cooperated, and in fact some of us were hot.
    :celebrate


    If the police have better things to do than "keep tabs" on people picking up litter, perhaps they won't detain another person because this is how we're going to respond every time.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •