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Thread: Why we shouldn't rush to dance on the P-I's grave

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    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seatt...-of-Seattle-PI

    Gun rights community should not cheer so loud over demise of Seattle P-I

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    I disagree with the premise that it is a sad day for the First Amendment, and am not sad to see some of these left leaning newspapers fail. There was no infringement by the Federal or any other government entity. All it means is there are plenty of other outlets for the First Amendment (smaller newspapers, internet, TV) and people are not willing to pay for that particular newspapers, take on things. Whether it costs too much, or whether people do not like the slant the paper has, it has not been able to adjust to its market. Oh well.

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    The PI's 1850 business model has not been working for quite a few years. They have had plenty of time to change their strategy but refused to do so. Now it appears as though it is too late. I weep for them.

    :celebrate

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    As unfortunate it is to see a business fail that's all it is a business. Business's have to make money or they cease to exist. My libertarian view makes me a bit callous to these sort of things.

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    Remember that the PI drove more conservative newspapers out of business. What goes around comes around. Do not conflate capitalism with conservatism.

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    Every time I go to any page on the examiner's website, all I get is a header with a bunch of ads. Oh well, no article for me.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Other than the loss of jobs, the Times can follow right after them for all I care.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Every time I go to any page on the examiner's website, all I get is a header with a bunch of ads. Oh well, no article for me.
    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seatt...-of-Seattle-PI







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    my reply on the site there:

    I think I would feel different if the P-I were going away due to it being banned by some legislation that skirted the edge of legality regarding the First Amendment. However, it's going away because they're so far out of touch with reality that they can't produce a product that people want to buy.

    A more apt analogy with gun owners would be if say Smith & Wesson were going out of business, not because of government regulation or interference, but because no one wanted to buy Smith & Wesson anymore.

    The fact that both sides are better represented, and it's easier to get the actual unbiased facts online and over the air without waiting for tomorrow to get the news is what's killed the P-I. They simply can't compete in the digital age with an inferior product that is too late to market.


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    On The Demise of the Prevaricator-Izvestia

    Nobody likes to see a tradition end, hence the almost universal appeal of "Fiddler On The Roof." However, there are a few points to remember in this "dying newspaper" syndrome. We lovers of gun rights had almost nothing to do with the death of the P-I's print version. That is, after all, the only death involved here. The internet presence lingers on.

    The internet is the best thing that ever happened to the dissemination of news, in my opinion. Gone is the unavailability of alternative viewpoints and reporting. It's actually possible on the internet to get analysis of a given event by someone who understands the situation. I'm not referring to opinion pieces here although print media feel no compunction about mixing opinion in with the factual (so to speak) description of the event. Now, some web sites do this too, but we don't have to go there, do we? The print media felt that they had a foot on our throats and force us to read biased material. This is the real beauty of the internet and why print media can't compete; choice.

    The above paragraph explains the loss of readers, meaning buyers. The P-I failed for business (economic) reasons. In addition to the loss of revenue from newspaper sales was the bigger loss of ad revenue based on declining readership numbers. It seems to me that the dumest thing the employees could have done, under the circumstances, was to go on strike. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

    While the proponents of socialism have lost a soap box, they'll find another (beside the Seattle Times). For ourselves, the strategy and tactics of the fight remain largely the same; education, in its many facets.

    MD

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    Whether or not they leaned left its still a sad day when a medium for free speech is taken away. We gun owners usually have a great dislike of leftist news media, but it is still a form for free speech. Imagine how it would be if all of Seattle's daily disappear. Imagine if you would a state run news. Government starts bailing out the news media and gaining controlling interest. Or they decide that in the absence of a news media, they should create one.

    I would rather have a free and liberal paper than a government controlled one.

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    Nitrox314 wrote:
    Whether or not they leaned left its still a sad day when a medium for free speech is taken away. We gun owners usually have a great dislike of leftist news media, but it is still a form for free speech. Imagine how it would be if all of Seattle's daily disappear. Imagine if you would a state run news. Government starts bailing out the news media and gaining controlling interest. Or they decide that in the absence of a news media, they should create one.

    I would rather have a free and liberal paper than a government controlled one.

    This isn't directed particularly at you Nitrox. I'm just using it as a springboard.

    I have long considered the media in this country treasonous.

    There is little difference between arguing a slant and arguing for the government; particularly when the beneficiaries of the slant end up in the government. Liberal or conservative, it doesn't matter.

    If the media is going to fulfill its social responsibility it will knock off all conscious slant and give us the facts, all of them. Whatever the readers need to know in order to make informed, responsible decisions.

    They can start with full page ads on freedom in general, economic freedom, tyrrany, and responsibilities as citizens.

    Personally, I'm sick and tired of wading through vast amounts of media garbage tofindone or two useful facts.

    Since most of the media long ago abdicated their responsibilities regarding government, I have little sympathy for them. Particularly when what they are doing is contributing to divisiveness in this country. They are helping to tear apart our society. I have no sympathy for such.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    FunkTrooper wrote:
    As unfortunate it is to see a business fail that's all it is a business. Business's have to make money or they cease to exist. My libertarian view makes me a bit callous to these sort of things.
    Unless your one of three big car manufacturers, AIG, Fanny Mae, or a host of others that we bail out. Let some of them fail and the rest will fall in line with business practices I say.

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    Triple Tap wrote:
    FunkTrooper wrote:
    As unfortunate it is to see a business fail that's all it is a business. Business's have to make money or they cease to exist. My libertarian view makes me a bit callous to these sort of things.
    Unless your one of three big car manufacturers, AIG, Fanny Mae, or a host of others that we bail out. Let some of them fail and the rest will fall in line with business practices I say.
    I don't even like the Idea of these bail outs simply because its giving the government more control over the private sector.

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    The internet is the best thing that ever happened to the dissemination of news, in my opinion.
    I wish I could agree with that but I have some mixed emotions on it. I know all of the great thing about instant news a differing opinions but I have see a change in the attitude of people about so many things since the rise of the Internet.

    Probably my biggest problems are trolls and the people that feed them all anonomously. The Internet seem to bring out the worst in people with the attacks and lies with no recourse. At least with a newspaper if a lie was printed about you then you could sue for libel. Now almost anyone can say anything and you have to just grin and bear it.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Probably my biggest problems are trolls and the people that feed them all anonomously. The Internet seem to bring out the worst in people with the attacks and lies with no recourse. At least with a newspaper if a lie was printed about you then you could sue for libel. Now almost anyone can say anything and you have to just grin and bear it.
    Or write your own blog refuting the lies. It then becomes the responsibility of the people to find accurate news instead of just reading the daily paper because "they must be telling the truth because they are The Paper".

    Anyway, the problem with suing for libel is that suits of that nature are almost never successful and even if they are, the damage is already done. Printing a retraction on page Z112 does nothing to repair the damage done by the above the fold headline six months previously.

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    Looks like theres a bill to bail out smaller newspapers. There are no stipulations yet except they cannot endorse political campaigns. Just watch that it does not give government control as the bill morphs in the senate.



    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...ue-newspapers/

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    Nitrox314 wrote:
    Whether or not they leaned left its still a sad day when a medium for free speech is taken away. We gun owners usually have a great dislike of leftist news media, but it is still a form for free speech. Imagine how it would be if all of Seattle's daily disappear. Imagine if you would a state run news. Government starts bailing out the news media and gaining controlling interest. Or they decide that in the absence of a news media, they should create one.

    I would rather have a free and liberal paper than a government controlled one.
    Told ya all so...

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...paper-bailout/

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    What a great day for the First Amendment. When papers that print mostly lies lose money and go out of business, that means thatthe people can still chose to buy or not buy those rags.

    The only media that will survive is that which is truly fair. It will take time to weed out the charlitains though.

    Other lying papers are also losing subscribers as well. I support my local paper and have a subscription. I also subscribe to the Wall Street Journal as I think they're very fair in their reporting.


    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    What a great day for the First Amendment. When papers that print mostly lies lose money and go out of business, that means thatthe people can still chose to buy or not buy those rags.

    The only media that will survive is that which is truly fair. It will take time to weed out the charlitains though.

    Other lying papers are also losing subscribers as well. I support my local paper and have a subscription. I also subscribe to the Wall Street Journal as I think they're very fair in their reporting.

    But the papers that print lies and fail are going to recieve bailouts from the government and then they will be spouting government rhetoric...

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    What a great day for the First Amendment. When papers that print mostly lies lose money and go out of business, that means thatthe people can still chose to buy or not buy those rags.

    The only media that will survive is that which is truly fair. It will take time to weed out the charlitains though.

    Other lying papers are also losing subscribers as well. I support my local paper and have a subscription. I also subscribe to the Wall Street Journal as I think they're very fair in their reporting.

    The PI has been going out of business for about as long as I've been alive. If it wasn't for the JOA that the Feds worked out between the PI and the Times, the PI would have gone away a long, long time ago.

    I didn't like a lot of the PI, but there were parts of it I liked, including a couple of columnists. What I enjoy though is the myth of the "lying rag." Dig up an old copy of the PI, and go through it for me please. Make a note of every single lie. Then reference and source the actual truth to back up your point. Then show how the paper was "mostly lies" as you put it.

    I'm sure you are quite capable of doing that. Just one single issue. Each and every article in it (you can skip the letters to the editor if you like.) Document each untruth, and cite actual sources for the real truth.

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    Nitrox314 wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    What a great day for the First Amendment. When papers that print mostly lies lose money and go out of business, that means thatthe people can still chose to buy or not buy those rags.

    The only media that will survive is that which is truly fair. It will take time to weed out the charlitains though.

    Other lying papers are also losing subscribers as well. I support my local paper and have a subscription. I also subscribe to the Wall Street Journal as I think they're very fair in their reporting.

    But the papers that print lies and fail are going to recieve bailouts from the government and then they will be spouting government rhetoric...
    Same challenge I made WFL. Pick up a paper. Document each and every lie. Then cite it with hard facts and sources for those facts. Also make note of if the article is written by the paper or off the newswire.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    What a great day for the First Amendment. When papers that print mostly lies lose money and go out of business, that means thatthe people can still chose to buy or not buy those rags.

    The only media that will survive is that which is truly fair. It will take time to weed out the charlitains though.

    Other lying papers are also losing subscribers as well. I support my local paper and have a subscription. I also subscribe to the Wall Street Journal as I think they're very fair in their reporting.

    The PI has been going out of business for about as long as I've been alive. If it wasn't for the JOA that the Feds worked out between the PI and the Times, the PI would have gone away a long, long time ago.

    I didn't like a lot of the PI, but there were parts of it I liked, including a couple of columnists. What I enjoy though is the myth of the "lying rag." Dig up an old copy of the PI, and go through it for me please. Make a note of every single lie. Then reference and source the actual truth to back up your point. Then show how the paper was "mostly lies" as you put it.

    I'm sure you are quite capable of doing that. Just one single issue. Each and every article in it (you can skip the letters to the editor if you like.) Document each untruth, and cite actual sources for the real truth.
    There's no need to trouble myself with showing what was untrue. If they were on the level, they'd not be dying. But they decided to fill most of their paper with AP stories including most of the local stories. I trust the AP as far as I can throw their main office building. As far as I am Concerned, the AP is worthless and so are 100% of the stories they produce and so are 100% of their reporters. If only 10% of them fabricate and make up stories, it makes 100% of their stories worthless, and if the PI uses anything from them.... they themselves are worthless and deserve nothing less than to go out of business. And of course, the Statist tax policies and environmental regulations also killed the paper in this State.

    How many of their stories are bought from the wire services? More than 80%? I think so. I have even read local stories in the PI from the AP... what kind of BS laziness is that? They don't deserve to exist. If they get bailed out.... that will just prove they are a propaganda arm for the Democrats.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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