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Only 19.....possible to own a pistol?

fire_man2340

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Im going to let this one go, and hey frenchdldont do what i said the first time, the more i think about it's stupid! but on behalf i didnt know was going to by me a gun. Buy ill see everyone els on a Different Topic, SEE YA
 

acrimsontide

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wylde007 wrote:
acrimsontide wrote:
True, BUT when the purchaser of the "gift" was reimbursed for the "gift", the whole situation changes. Good luck convincing the ATF that you received a gift of a firearm and then in turn gave the purchaser a gift in the amount of the firearm.


There are several LEOs who post here, hopefully one of them will comment on this.
In that case, have the original purchaser run a few rounds through it first and then he can sell it to you.

It's very simple and there's not really a damn thing the gummint can do about it. The guy at the FFL doesn't have any interest in where hat gun goes once it leaves the building. He's done his part. If a person bought a whole arsenal as an investment and never fired them once, then sold each one to somebody else for a profit... there's not a thing anyone can do to him.


Oh yes there is. If he bought a "whole arsenal" to sell for a profit, then he is in the business of selling firearms for a profit which requires a Federal Firearm License. You are citing examples of ways to get around a law and I can assure you that the ATF is not going to considerdeliberately buyingguns for resalea hobby.

As for having the purchaser to "run a few rounds through it", that makes no difference in a straw purchase. You can play all the games you like, but the intent to go around the law is what is going to get you in trouble.

You can do as you wish of course and it is none of my business, but you are giving bad advice to others on how to get around a federal statute on firearms which is a very serious thing. You might get away with it and you might not, depends on if you are caught as with any other violation of the law. IF you are caught and the ATF can or does prove that you are buying for someone else who cannot legally buy, you have real problems. If you are are buying guns to sell for a profit without a license, you also have problems.
 

TexasNative

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The fact of the matter is that it's just flat-out harder to buy a handgun if you're 18 to 20 years old. You can't buy a gun from an FFL, period. If you try to skirt the issue, you're running a real risk of being convicted of participating in a straw purchase.

Until you're 21, your only legal avenue is buying a handgun from another private citizen. There are a variety of ways to find guns for sale from other folks, but your selection is going to be limited to what people in your state are offering for sale from their private collections.

And that's just the way it is until you turn 21. I'm not happy to tell you that, but that's just reality.
 

wylde007

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acrimsontide wrote:
Oh yes there is. If he bought a "whole arsenal" to sell for a profit, then he is in the business of selling firearms for a profit which requires a Federal Firearm License. You are citing examples of ways to get around a law and I can assure you that the ATF is not going to considerdeliberately buyingguns for resalea hobby.

As for having the purchaser to "run a few rounds through it", that makes no difference in a straw purchase. You can play all the games you like, but the intent to go around the law is what is going to get you in trouble.

You can do as you wish of course and it is none of my business, but you are giving bad advice to others on how to get around a federal statute on firearms which is a very serious thing. You might get away with it and you might not, depends on if you are caught as with any other violation of the law. IF you are caught and the ATF can or does prove that you are buying for someone else who cannot legally buy, you have real problems. If you are are buying guns to sell for a profit without a license, you also have problems.
Cite, please?

The ATF can munch my taint. Once property is "private" they have no say. It's not "getting around" anything. FFLs are necessary for import, initial and cross-border sales. Once a firearm enters the private market, they have no control.

I'll stand by the Constitution on that one.
 

acrimsontide

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wylde007 wrote:
acrimsontide wrote:
Oh yes there is. If he bought a "whole arsenal" to sell for a profit, then he is in the business of selling firearms for a profit which requires a Federal Firearm License. You are citing examples of ways to get around a law and I can assure you that the ATF is not going to considerdeliberately buyingguns for resalea hobby.

As for having the purchaser to "run a few rounds through it", that makes no difference in a straw purchase. You can play all the games you like, but the intent to go around the law is what is going to get you in trouble.

You can do as you wish of course and it is none of my business, but you are giving bad advice to others on how to get around a federal statute on firearms which is a very serious thing. You might get away with it and you might not, depends on if you are caught as with any other violation of the law. IF you are caught and the ATF can or does prove that you are buying for someone else who cannot legally buy, you have real problems. If you are are buying guns to sell for a profit without a license, you also have problems.
Cite, please?

The ATF can munch my taint. Once property is "private" they have no say. It's not "getting around" anything. FFLs are necessary for import, initial and cross-border sales. Once a firearm enters the private market, they have no control.

I'll stand by the Constitution on that one.

Hey dude, do what you like. As far as "cite please", we have talked straw purchases so you know what is and isn't legal. I'm sure that if you do these illegal acts, someday and ATF agent and federal prosecuter will be happy to "cite please" to you and when they do, good luck with your standing on the Constitution on that one. Have a nice day.
 

frenchdl

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I guess it comes down to the fact that I either need to A) get somebody to buy me a handgun "as a gift" or B) Find someone selling a handgun and do a private purchase.

Although it is still blurry to me what the difference between a straw purchase and a private purchase is although Im sure that was one of the intentions of the law makers ;).

It sounds to me if the pistol is paid for everytime it is aquired, as in person X buys a gun with his money and person Y buys gun with his own money then it is not a straw purchase?

Also Im curious if trading for pistol would be considered a private purchase, straw purchase or niether?

Maybe I should contact one of my lawyer friends.
 

nova

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frenchdl wrote:
Maybe I should contact one of my lawyer friends.
Do that. As for "a gift", It's not a straw purchase if it is a real gift, as in, someone guys a handgun for you and you give them nothing in return and they expect nothing in return. If you give them compensation for the gun, straw purchase.

Remember Sarah Brady (the gun grabber)? She bought a rifle for her son as a gift (who was then under 18) who could not purchase it himself from an FFL. This wasn't a straw purchase, it was simply a (hypocritical, but nonetheless) gift.
 

kaiheitai17

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nova wrote:
frenchdl wrote:
Seems silly to me.
Welcome to the world of gun laws.

In my non-attorney opinion, straw purchases occur when someone walks into a gunstore with the intent to be reimbursed for the gun afterwards from someone else in exchange for the gun. In other words, someone is paying you to buy the gun for them.
And that someone is forbidden from owning firearms, e.g., a convicted felon, etc.
 

leprechaun117

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kaiheitai17 wrote:
nova wrote:
frenchdl wrote: 
Seems silly to me.
Welcome to the world of gun laws.

In my non-attorney opinion, straw purchases occur when someone walks into a gunstore with the intent to be reimbursed for the gun afterwards from someone else in exchange for the gun. In other words, someone is paying you to buy the gun for them.
And that someone is forbidden from owning firearms, e.g., a convicted felon, etc.

Nope. It is illegal to buy a gun for your buddy just because he doesn't have time to stop by the gun store. Remember that question on the ATF form saying something about "the gun being purchased is for the above applicant"? Wording is completely wrong, but you get the idea.
 

DrMark

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kaiheitai17 wrote:
nova wrote:
frenchdl wrote:
Seems silly to me.
Welcome to the world of gun laws.

In my non-attorney opinion, straw purchases occur when someone walks into a gunstore with the intent to be reimbursed for the gun afterwards from someone else in exchange for the gun. In other words, someone is paying you to buy the gun for them.
And that someone is forbidden from owning firearms, e.g., a convicted felon, etc.


Does this mean that an 18-yr-old could legally give a 21-yr-old $500 to buy a Glock for him from the dealer?

While the dealer is not allowed to sell the Glock to the 18-yr-old, the 18-yr-old is not forbidden from owning the Glock.

Does it even matter that the "real buyer" is eligible? Isn't the crime in concealing the true buyer of the gun, regardless of the end user's eligibility?
 

acrimsontide

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DrMark wrote:
kaiheitai17 wrote:
nova wrote:
frenchdl wrote:
Seems silly to me.
Welcome to the world of gun laws.

In my non-attorney opinion, straw purchases occur when someone walks into a gunstore with the intent to be reimbursed for the gun afterwards from someone else in exchange for the gun. In other words, someone is paying you to buy the gun for them.
And that someone is forbidden from owning firearms, e.g., a convicted felon, etc.


Does it even matter that the "real buyer" is eligible? Isn't the crime in concealing the true buyer of the gun, regardless of the end user's eligibility?
It doesn't matter if I have just made10 seperate gun purchases from that dealer and passed 10 seperate background checks. If I then give you the money to buy a gun for me and you do so, then we have just made a straw purchase and under Federal law, we have committed a felony. I might be completely elligible to buy that gun, but if I have you buy it, we crossed the line and broke the law. And contrary to some opinions, it won't matter if you go outside and shoot a couple of hundred rounds through that gun before I give you the money. If you bought itFOR me,the damage is done.
 

DrMark

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acrimsontide wrote:
DrMark wrote:
kaiheitai17 wrote:
nova wrote:
frenchdl wrote:
Seems silly to me.
Welcome to the world of gun laws.

In my non-attorney opinion, straw purchases occur when someone walks into a gunstore with the intent to be reimbursed for the gun afterwards from someone else in exchange for the gun. In other words, someone is paying you to buy the gun for them.
And that someone is forbidden from owning firearms, e.g., a convicted felon, etc.
Does it even matter that the "real buyer" is eligible? Isn't the crime in concealing the true buyer of the gun, regardless of the end user's eligibility?
It doesn't matter if I have just made10 seperate gun purchases from that dealer and passed 10 seperate background checks. If I then give you the money to buy a gun for me and you do so, then we have just made a straw purchase and under Federal law, we have committed a felony. I might be completely elligible to buy that gun, but if I have you buy it, we crossed the line and broke the law. And contrary to some opinions, it won't matter if you go outside and shoot a couple of hundred rounds through that gun before I give you the money. If you bought itFOR me,the damage is done.
Okay, that's what I thought.
 

frenchdl

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Thanks so much folks, I understand now how to not make straw purchase and what a gift constitutes. Ill have to ask my father sometime around my birthday ifI have notaquireda pistol by then.

Now for another grey area question. PRIVATE SALES. So ifsomeone goes out and buys a handgun and you had anything to do with the decision making process or "planned" the purchase with them, then it has become a straw purchase.

So it seems like me for a private sale of a handgunto be legal (to someone under 21) they would have to have owned the said pistol for some amount of time and claimed it as "thier own" (although I doubt this time period is specified anywhere). Is this correct?

For example I see a classified in the News paper for a pistol I want and go inquire and purchase, this would be a legitimate private purchase, or if this was done at a gunshow, etc. Seems like you remain more in the clear if your are not related or aquainted to the person you are buying from :banghead:. I will definetly start visiting more gun shows and inspecting my newspaper if this is the case! Hopefully i can find some private sales.
 

kaiheitai17

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I'll stand corrected on my original assertion. It seems the ATF changed the definition in 1995 to include even those who it would be legal to own a firearm.

This, What is a straw purchase? A straw purchase is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check or desiring to not have his or her name associated with the transaction, uses a proxy buyer who can pass the required background check to purchase the firearm for him/her. It is highly illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison. from here, http://www.dontlie.org/FAQ.cfm, would support my original statement.

However, this from Wiki, says different,

Under United States federal gun laws, a straw purchase is any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is not the "actual purchaser", but is acting as a proxy for another person. Although the term is commonly used to refer to purchasing on behalf of a person who is legally ineligible to purchase or possess a firearm, the law does not make that distinction.

This from the NSSF, says,

What is a "straw purchase?"


[align=center]http://www.dontlie.org/[/align]A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s). Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor. Frequently, the actual purchaser is a prohibited person under federal law.

Per this site, http://www.davekopel.com/NRO/2003/Gray-Gun-Stories.htm, In1995, BATF changed the guidance, and instructed dealers that a straw purchase also includes sales in which both the initial buyer and the ultimate recipient could legally purchase and possess firearms.

In most of the opinions that I read, the focus seemed to be on preventing those who could not legally purchasing a firearm from obtaining one through another person. But that is not actually specified in the law/regulation.

In actuality, I think it would be rather difficult to prove IF you were to go about it very discretely, which you haven't done by posting on this site. If your father or an older sibling, an uncle, close friend purchased one for you bydeclaring that it is a REAL gift for/to you (no money or other items of value are exchanged between you two) then you would be okay in my opinion. If a friend had a firearm already owned and owned long before you expressed a desire to purchase it, you would be okay, again my opinion.

IANAL, this is just my non-professional opinion.
 
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