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Pulled Over With Gun In Car

Citizen

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
Why does common sense dictate that you give up your rights?
Please tell me what right you have given up by informing the officer of the presence of your handgun?
You have also effectively waived your 4th Amendment protections for your gun--what's left of them that the government will recognize.If you are open carrying, now, your weapon is even more open to arbitrary temporary seizure "for officer safety" by an officer who lacks judgement or just wants to run serial numbers or doesn't want to bother exercising judgement, and just automatically seizes all guns. Please don't anyone botherto argue that notifying is not consent; we all know how impossible it will be tosue foran arbitrary and lacking-reasonableness seizure later in court. Same for a formal complaint.

We owe the police no courtesy on this. To declare so, to argue for it, takes it out of the realm of personalpreference and puts into the sphere of obligation.
 

ProShooter

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ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
Why does common sense dictate that you give up your rights?
Please tell me what right you have given up by informing the officer of the presence of your handgun?
Your right to remain silent.

You've been watching too many episides of COPS.

The right to remain silent is to avoid incriminating yourself for any illegal actions that you may have commited. If you are doing something legal, then you have nothing to worry about.
 

Citizen

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
Why does common sense dictate that you give up your rights?
Please tell me what right you have given up by informing the officer of the presence of your handgun?
Your right to remain silent.
You've been watching too many episides of COPS.

The right to remain silent is to avoid incriminating yourself for any illegal actions that you may have commited. If you are doing something legal, then you have nothing to worry about.
(from an earlier post of mine)

The 4th and 5th Amendment were written specifically to protect innocent people. People who are doing nothing. People with nothing to hide.

For a good explanation of this, view the video linked below. I attest that in the video you will hear a law professor tell you to not talk to police, with 8 reasons given and explained. He will quote a US Supreme Court justice supporting not talking to police. And a police detective will step to the podium after the professor and say, (paraphrase) "Everything he said is true. It was right. And correct."

Video: http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/



Also,

Too many, even those who should be better advised, view this privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers. They too readily assume that those who invoke it are either guilty of crime or commit perjury in claiming the privilege.[suP] [n2][/suP] Such a view does scant honor to the patriots who sponsored the Bill of Rights as a condition to acceptance of the Constitution by the ratifying States. Ullman vs US.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0350_0422_ZO.html



The privilege against self-incrimination serves as a protection to the innocent, as well as to the guilty, and we have been admonished that it should be given a liberal application. Hoffman v. United States, . . . 341 U.S. 479,



To the contrary, we have emphasized that one of the Fifth Amendment's "basic functions ... is to protect innocent men ... 'who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.'" Grunewald v. United States, 353 U. S. 391, 421 (1957) (quoting Slochower v. Board of Higher Ed. of New York City, 350 U. S. 551, 557-558 (1956)) (emphasis in original). In Grunewald, we recognized that truthful responses of an innocent witness, as well as those of a wrongdoer, may provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speaker's own mouth. 353 U. S., at 421-422. Ohio vs Reiner:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/532/17/case.html
 

suntzu

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
Why does common sense dictate that you give up your rights?
Please tell me what right you have given up by informing the officer of the presence of your handgun?
your rights under the 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments? Of course it depends on the mentality of the person who pulls you over--he/she may be a good officer, OR he/she may be a prime, grade A #1 a-hole who really wants to show who has the power at the moment--at least until you get them in court for violating your rights and take away every vestige of material wealth they have remaining to their name...

I say this, because depending on the mentality of the officer who pulls you over--if you choose to inform, when there is no reason or duty to do so, and all they did was stop you for speeding--the officer may decide to go ahead and call more cars in, bring you out at gun point, put you face first on the ground, take your property, cuff you and spend the next hour or so trying to convince you to let them search your car while they try their hardest to find some reason to arrest you--all the while making every attempt to get you to not decide to sue them for false arrest and violation of your Constitutionally protected rights...OR they may tell you--hey, no big deal, thanks for telling me, and have a nice day and never even write you a ticket....

it really is a crap shoot when one pulls you over, because unfortunately they don't have signs on their uniforms saying "I'm pro 2A and pro-people", or conversely "I'm an A*hole, so don't mess with me."
 

ravonaf

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
Why does common sense dictate that you give up your rights?
Please tell me what right you have given up by informing the officer of the presence of your handgun?
Your right to remain silent.

You've been watching too many episides of COPS.

The right to remain silent is to avoid incriminating yourself for any illegal actions that you may have commited. If you are doing something legal, then you have nothing to worry about.
I advise you talk to a lawyer sometime. You should also talk to the thousands upon thousands of innocent people convicted of crimes. They thought they had nothing to worry about also. Also, try actually reading the Miranda rights sometime.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

When they say ANYTHING. They mean ANYTHING.
 

suntzu

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
Why does common sense dictate that you give up your rights?
Please tell me what right you have given up by informing the officer of the presence of your handgun?
Your right to remain silent.

You've been watching too many episides of COPS.

The right to remain silent is to avoid incriminating yourself for any illegal actions that you may have commited. If you are doing something legal, then you have nothing to worry about.
Just like if you have nothing to hide, then you won't mind letting them search your car and everything in it?

The 5th amendment was not just written to avoid incriminating yourself. In reality, you have no obligation to speak to law enforcement other than to identify yourself where necessary under law. In the state I live in there is no stop and identify statute, so they have to have PC to even ask for ID here, unless they are conducting a traffic stop or the highway patrol are conducting a DL checkpoint...

If a police officer asks you if you know why you were stopped--why no officer, I have no idea...the burden of proof is theoretically on the state to prove it's case against anyone. If you admit to nothing, they won't have anything to use against you. Police love to conduct fishing expeditions during traffic stops..something along the lines of "sir, mind if I ask you one more question--do you have any drugs or weapons in the car, and do you mind if I search..." To which, any rational person would respond--actually officer, if we're done with the traffic stop I'd like to be on my way....Continue to press will being about the inevitable question of "am I free to go now"...followed shortly by a complaint to their supervisor in short order....

A police officer could press you for permission to search if you inform them you have a gun....even though possession of a gun in most states is not a crime in itself. The only reason I see to inform is (1) if the firearm was in your glove box with your papers and you had to reach for the papers, or (2) there is a state requirement to do so.

Why create more problems for yourself if you can avoid it?
 

ProShooter

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ravonaf wrote:
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

Thanks for the refresher...hearing those words once again warms my heart.

Like I said earlier, too many episides of COPS.
 

ravonaf

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

Thanks for the refresher...hearing those words once again warms my heart.

Like I said earlier, too many episides of COPS.

I don't watch cops. Instead of just insulting people I would be really interested in why you think I should give up my rights?
 

suntzu

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ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

Thanks for the refresher...hearing those words once again warms my heart.

Like I said earlier, too many episides of COPS.

I don't watch cops. Instead of just insulting people I would be really interested in why you think I should give up my rights?
you should not give up your rights.
 

ProShooter

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ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

Thanks for the refresher...hearing those words once again warms my heart.

Like I said earlier, too many episides of COPS.

I don't watch cops. Instead of just insulting people I would be really interested in why you think I should give up my rights?


I dont see anything about informing an officer as giving up your rights. If anything, its a gesture that goes along way in his mind.

You can say what you want about your perceptions of an officer's desire/intent/chip on his shoulder. When you have worn both hats like I have, it may be a bit easier for you to understand. No officer wakes up in the morning looking to screw a law abiding citizen. They appreciate the fact that you thought enough to inform them about the gun and many times they return the favor with a warning rather than an admission ticket to GD court.
 

acrimsontide

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After reading all this, I'm getting to the point that I'm afraid to say hello to a LEO. My neighbor is a local detective and the next time he speaks to me I think I will say "I plead the 5th". Who knows he may be setting me up for a property search.:)

Just having a little fun with all of this.
 

ravonaf

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?

Thanks for the refresher...hearing those words once again warms my heart.

Like I said earlier, too many episides of COPS.

I don't watch cops. Instead of just insulting people I would be really interested in why you think I should give up my rights?


I dont see anything about informing an officer as giving up your rights. If anything, its a gesture that goes along way in his mind.

You can say what you want about your perceptions of an officer's desire/intent/chip on his shoulder. When you have worn both hats like I have, it may be a bit easier for you to understand. No officer wakes up in the morning looking to screw a law abiding citizen. They appreciate the fact that you thought enough to inform them about the gun and many times they return the favor with a warning rather than an admission ticket to GD court.
No offense. But I think I'll take the advise of a lawyer rather than yours.

When you say no LEO intentionally screws over law abiding citizens that's a 100% false statement. LEO's have been convicted of exactly that. If the perfect world that you are trying to convince me existed I would not even have to carry a firearm.

As evidence from your attitude why should I care about making any LEO feel better at the expense of my rights when there are LEO's out there like you that don't respect my rights?
 

suntzu

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acrimsontide wrote:
After reading all this, I'm getting to the point that I'm afraid to say hello to a LEO. My neighbor is a local detective and the next time he speaks to me I think I will say "I plead the 5th". Who knows he may be setting me up for a property search.:)

Just having a little fun with all of this.
nothing wrong with having a little fun...

however, lives have been lost because of people on power trips who just happen to wear a badge. This is a serious issue--and the mentality of the police plays a major role in making the decision as to whether or not to inform if you are carrying.

As I said--they don't wear a sign saying "I'm a good officer" or "I'm an A hole"...if they did, that would make things so much simpler...

bottom line, get everything on tape if it is possible and legal--for your protection.
 

ravonaf

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acrimsontide wrote:
After reading all this, I'm getting to the point that I'm afraid to say hello to a LEO. My neighbor is a local detective and the next time he speaks to me I think I will say "I plead the 5th". Who knows he may be setting me up for a property search.:)

Just having a little fun with all of this.
Two of my best friends are Norfolk Sheriff deputies. I KNOW they are good people. I also know from being such good friends with them that bad cops do exist in Norfolk.
 

suntzu

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ravonaf wrote:
acrimsontide wrote:
After reading all this, I'm getting to the point that I'm afraid to say hello to a LEO. My neighbor is a local detective and the next time he speaks to me I think I will say "I plead the 5th". Who knows he may be setting me up for a property search.:)

Just having a little fun with all of this.
Two of my best friends are Norfolk Sheriff deputies. I KNOW they are good people. I also know from being such good friends with them that bad cops do exist in Norfolk.
and they do nothing about it?--sorry, side issue, don't want to hijack the thread..
 

ravonaf

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suntzu wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
acrimsontide wrote:
After reading all this, I'm getting to the point that I'm afraid to say hello to a LEO. My neighbor is a local detective and the next time he speaks to me I think I will say "I plead the 5th". Who knows he may be setting me up for a property search.:)

Just having a little fun with all of this.
Two of my best friends are Norfolk Sheriff deputies. I KNOW they are good people. I also know from being such good friends with them that bad cops do exist in Norfolk.
and they do nothing about it?--sorry, side issue, don't want to hijack the thread..
They work in the Norfolk jail. Another deputy beating a prisoner was witnessed. The beating was reported. What happened after that I honestly don't know.
 

ProShooter

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ravonaf wrote:
When you say no LEO intentionally screws over law abiding citizens that's a 100% false statement. LEO's have been convicted of exactly that.
and every doctor tries to kill people with bad medical advice....and every lawyer tries to see a client get convicted, every auto mechanic is a thief in waiting trying to do repairs that are not needed.......the list is endless, isnt it (sarcasm)

The point is that there are problem children in every profession. To malign an entire profession is just wrong. To assume the worst in your interactions with police will just breed contempt.
 

Citizen

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ProShooter wrote:
SNIP To assume the worst in your interactions with police will just breed contempt.
I think that statement works equally well directed at certain LEO's.
 

fire_man2340

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Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
 

ravonaf

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ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
When you say no LEO intentionally screws over law abiding citizens that's a 100% false statement. LEO's have been convicted of exactly that.
and every doctor tries to kill people with bad medical advice....and every lawyer tries to see a client get convicted, every auto mechanic is a thief in waiting trying to do repairs that are not needed.......the list is endless, isnt it (sarcasm)

The point is that there are problem children in every profession. To malign an entire profession is just wrong. To assume the worst in your interactions with police will just breed contempt.
Now I agree with you 100%. I'm not trying to malign an entire profession. I completely respect how difficult the job is. I completely understand any LEO not wanting to go home in a body bag. The good LEO's have it that much harder when just a tiny few give them a bad name.
 
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