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Pulled Over With Gun In Car

ravonaf

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fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.
 

suntzu

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ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
When you say no LEO intentionally screws over law abiding citizens that's a 100% false statement. LEO's have been convicted of exactly that.
and every doctor tries to kill people with bad medical advice....and every lawyer tries to see a client get convicted, every auto mechanic is a thief in waiting trying to do repairs that are not needed.......the list is endless, isnt it (sarcasm)

The point is that there are problem children in every profession. To malign an entire profession is just wrong. To assume the worst in your interactions with police will just breed contempt.
Now I agree with you 100%. I'm not trying to malign an entire profession. I completely respect how difficult the job is. I completely understand any LEO not wanting to go home in a body bag. The good LEO's have it that much harder when just a tiny few give them a bad name.
I think it is more than a tiny few...it is just too difficult to trust any, because they again don't wear a sign differentiating between the good and the bad...
 

suntzu

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ravonaf wrote:
fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.
I thought in Virginia a citizen had the ability to refuse to be disarmed unless the leo had a real, and articulable reason to believe the person was a threat to the leo, or am I wrong?
 

Citizen

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ravonaf wrote:
fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.

(don't take this too hard ravonaf)

PENALTY FLAG! Failure to cite.

From the forum rules:

7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc. (emphasis in original)
 

Citizen

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suntzu wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.
I thought in Virginia a citizen had the ability to refuse to be disarmed unless the leo had a real, and articulable reason to believe the person was a threat to the leo, or am I wrong?
THIS IS WHY WE CITE AUTHORITY, PEOPLE!!!
 

ravonaf

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suntzu wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
When you say no LEO intentionally screws over law abiding citizens that's a 100% false statement. LEO's have been convicted of exactly that.
and every doctor tries to kill people with bad medical advice....and every lawyer tries to see a client get convicted, every auto mechanic is a thief in waiting trying to do repairs that are not needed.......the list is endless, isnt it (sarcasm)

The point is that there are problem children in every profession. To malign an entire profession is just wrong. To assume the worst in your interactions with police will just breed contempt.
Now I agree with you 100%. I'm not trying to malign an entire profession. I completely respect how difficult the job is. I completely understand any LEO not wanting to go home in a body bag. The good LEO's have it that much harder when just a tiny few give them a bad name.
I think it is more than a tiny few...it is just too difficult to trust any, because they again don't wear a sign differentiating between the good and the bad...
It's really hard to tell. There are literally thousands of online videos showing LEO misconduct. And there are probably many more untold that never get reported. For arguments even if it's a tiny few. Let's say 1%. If a mouse trap snapped on my finger 1 out of 100 times I would still never stick my finger in it.
 

allingeneral

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So, back to the topic at hand... I've read this entire thread with interest because it has been a primary concern of mine since I started OC a week or so ago. So, here's my opinion FWIW.

1) Open Carry - Make sure your firearm is in the open, i.e. on the seat or somewhere else that *cannot* be considered "Concealed". Make sure that it's not in a place that will require you to lean toward it when retrieving your registration/insurance documents. Keep your hands on the wheel until the LEO asks for your paperwork. No sudden movements, etc. No need to tell the LEO anything. If he sees your firearm in its conspicuous (Unconcealed) location and decides to ask questions, then use your best judgment to either answer them or not answer them as the situation dictates.

2) Concealed Carry - Do not tell the LEO that you are CC. The only thing that does is open a whole new angle on the situation that would never have been considered if you had not mentioned it. Let the LEO do his job and take care of the reason for which he pulled you over. Don't give him anything extra to think about or deal with, especially if it has to do with you being armed. Think about it from when you were a kid...your parents ask you "Hey, did you eat that piece of cake that I told you not to eat?" and you say "No, I didn't eat the cake, but I do have a lighter and a pack of cigarettes in my pocket." How much sense would that make? :)
 

Citizen

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ravonaf wrote:
fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.

I know of no law requiring you to surrender your gun for officer safety.

However, Terry vs Ohio and subsequent court opinions speak to whether an LEO can temporarily seize your gun.

I would be very surprised if there were not a couple odds and ends of law in VA that made it illegal for you to resist or obstruct an LEO.

I would not hand myfirearm to an LEO. I would let him take it while verbally refusing consent.
 

ravonaf

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My apologies for not citing. I read that on here and just thought it was common knowledge. Under advice of a lawyer I would always surrender my firearm if ordered. Even if you are in the right being dead won't help. (Fixed for poor grammar)
 

Citizen

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suntzu wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.
I thought in Virginia a citizen had the ability to refuse to be disarmed unless the leo had a real, and articulable reason to believe the person was a threat to the leo, or am I wrong?



Careful.

RAS has to do with the courts. And whether they will recognize evidence submitted by police.

Think about it for a moment. Separation of powers. Broadly, the courts cannot dictate to police what the police shall and shall not do, even though its worded like that sometimes.

The judicial can however tell the executive, "We ain't gonna let none of your improperly obtained evidence come before the jury in one of our courts, buster." And,"If you want us to let you use your evidence in a trial in one of our court rooms, here is what you have to do." Miranda vs Arizona is a good example of this. The court basically laid out very specific details of what they expected.

Here is a case in VA where the court made a decision about whether people could resist an unlawful detention. Its not precisely on point, but it gives a clue to the court's attitude. Especially when they quote a state court in another state.

Thus, recognition of a right to resist an unlawful detention would not advance the rationale supporting the common law right to use reasonable force to resist an unlawful arrest, but would only serve to increase the danger of violence inherent in such detentions.2 "Close questions as to whether an officer possesses articulable suspicion must be resolved in the courtroom and not fought out on the streets." State v. Wiegmann, 714 A.2d 841, 849-50 (Md. 1998) (quoting State v. Blackman, 617 A.2d 619, 630 (Md. App. 1992)). (emphasis added)

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1012526.pdf


So, realize that whether the LEO has genuine reason to believe the citizen is a threat is a question that the court is likely going to reserve to itself. Not you.

Also, LEO229 quoted a federal circuit court opinion some time back that, if I recall, permitted police to seize any gun in a traffic stop for officer safety. I never kept the link to the opinion, so I can't make a firm statement about it.
 

allingeneral

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ravonaf wrote:
I would never not disobey a request to disarm.
What exactly does that mean? I guess it's a triple negative in which 'never' and 'not' seem to cancel one another out... so can I break it down to mean that your lawyer told you to disobey a request to disarm?
 

ravonaf

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allingeneral wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
I would never not disobey a request to disarm.
What exactly does that mean? I guess it's a triple negative in which 'never' and 'not' seem to cancel one another out... so can I break it down to mean that your lawyer told you to disobey a request to disarm?

Again, my apologies for the double ( or is it triple) negative.

If an LEO ordered me to surrender my firearm I would give it to him. Even if the law said it was not required of me. I would make sure it was an order and not a request. Then I would get a lawyer.
 

Citizen

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suntzu wrote:
ravonaf wrote:
fire_man2340 wrote:
Now If I tell him that I Have a gun in the car, I dont have to give it to him if he ask for it DO I? And one more thing I DONT have a CWP, can I have my gun in my holster on my side in the OPEN, when I'm driving or not
Yes, you do. If asked for it you have to turn it over for the safety of the LEO.
I thought in Virginia a citizen had the ability to refuse to be disarmed unless the leo had a real, and articulable reason to believe the person was a threat to the leo, or am I wrong?

One can however refuse consent to being disarmed.

"Officer, I will comply. But I do not consent to any searches or seizures." Etc.
 

Citizen

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fire_man2340 wrote:
Ok I'm sorry there to lil to much off topic, Do I have to BY LAW give my pistol to the LEO if he ASK or Order's me to?


There is no law saying such in those words. However, it would be very unwise to refuse physically to allow the officer to obtain it. What the officer wants and feels necessary to get, he is going to get. If he wants it, he's is going to get it, even if he has to draw his gun, and radio for all his buddies to come help him. And, I am of the opinion that the courts will back him up.

And, it may even be illegal under a general resisting or obstruction statute to physically refuse.

Please re-readthe posts just above. If you are unsure or have a question, please don't hesitate to ask.

Edited to add: Another way of looking at it is asking yourself, "What if I physically refuse and am wrong, or have been given bad advice? What might the penalty be?"
 

Citizen

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allingeneral wrote:
SNIP 2) Concealed Carry - Do not tell the LEO that you are CC. The only thing that does is open a whole new angle on the situation that would never have been considered if you had not mentioned it. Let the LEO do his job and take care of the reason for which he pulled you over. Don't give him anything extra to think about or deal with, especially if it has to do with you being armed.
Do realize that when he runs your drivers license through his computer, he is going to find out about your CHP.

Whether you notify while CCing is a choice; just understand that there is more to it. You keeping quiet is only part of it. It also involves waiving your 4th Amendment protections for the gun, or what's left of them.
 

Citizen

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ravonaf wrote:
My apologies for not citing. I read that on here and just thought it was common knowledge. Under advice of a lawyer I would always surrender my firearm if ordered. Even if you are in the right being dead won't help. (Fixed for poor grammar)

'sOK. I understand. I wasn't questioning your accuracy.

The important thing is the effect on others who possibly take itout of context or misunderstand. See SunTzu's post above, the one I highlighted in red. He's got something sideways, and depending on how he or someone else uses that information, they can get into some real trouble, in my opinion.
 

allingeneral

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Citizen wrote:
Do realize that when he runs your drivers license through his computer, he is going to find out about your CHP.

Whether you notify while CCing is choice; just understand that there is more to it. You keeping quiet is only part of it.
I hadn't considered that. This is why I'm here...you have taught me something that I am very glad to know. I wasn't aware that running my license would show that I hold a CHP. :what:
 

Citizen

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allingeneral wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Do realize that when he runs your drivers license through his computer, he is going to find out about your CHP.

Whether you notify while CCing is choice; just understand that there is more to it. You keeping quiet is only part of it.
I hadn't considered that. This is why I'm here...you have taught me something that I am very glad to know. I wasn't aware that running my license would show that I hold a CHP.
You're welcome.

I went back and added something to my post, composing while you were posting.

The gist is that the gun is protected by the 4th Amendment. There is no court opinion allowing a detailed search ofevery car traffic stoppedto see if there is a gun hidden from view.

You will also want to consider that some police have reacted belligerently, this after discovering the CHP by checking the driver's license and then confirming the presence of the gun by an affirmative answer from the driver.

ChinChin's wife was threatened for not telling the officer. Another forum member received a wholly inappropriate and legally baseless threat intended to intimidate him into notifying at any future traffic stops.

You just have to decide at that exacttime on that exact day with that exact cop whether you want to stand on your rights or notify.
 
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