Hit this "Topic of the Day"

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Illegal incursions do not generally originate at the 'marked'border crossings. besides... if you know where the checkpoints are... it's rather easy to avoid them. Understand the concept of defense in depth beyond point defense? Point defense is US Customsand Coast Guard.

Phoenix, AZ has become the 2nd highest kidnap capitol of the world... and WHERE is Phoenix in relation to... the border? 'You ever get down here to this particular border? Not where the pavedroads go...

Yeah... the guy in the truck is a jerk and a deliberate provacateur who needs his punk You Tube ass kicked. What you don't see is him... how he is dressed... what he looks like. If he looks like some punk Mex gang-banger... then yeah... they're gonna ask him nationality. Nobody's ever asked my nationality... but that's not an unreasonable question. Not down here at any rate. If you think this punk is 'correct' in what he's doing... You're WRONG! He's just bein' a snot-nosed pain in the ass.

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Yeah, I can understand point defense. However, the points INSIDE the US wouldn't be necessary if they could come up with a better border LINE defense.

Nope never been quite that far south. I've love to visit that corner of the country someday, just haven't gotten there yet.

So, someone standing up for their rights is a jerk, a deliberate procacateur, a snot-nosed pain in the ass, and needs to have their ass kicked? Wow! Well what are you doing being a longtime prominent memberon a board dedicated to "a right unexercised is a right lost"? Or do you think the 2nd Amendment is the only one worth defending and the rest can go to hell?

If he's wrong, watch the rest of his videos, and tell mewhy is it they let him go EVERY SINGLE TIME? Because they're bullies, that's why, intimidating weak and ignorant people into giving up their rights. If someone comes along with the balls to call their bluff, there's not a damn thing they can do but cave in and let him go.

What does it matter if he's a student, young, old, liberal or conservative? The point is he's right, and just in what he's doing. Do you feel sorry for the officers he's dealing with? Poor little JBTs, boo hoo, they don't get to violate his rights. I don't care if they catch a drug smuggler in 1 car out of 10, our essential liberties are more important than their glorified "fishing expedition."

My freedom is more important to me than any "safety" the government can claim to provide for us by infringing on those freedoms. You would seem to want to trade yours freely?

...Orygunner...

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

I live about 10 minutes north of that particular check point on 86. He's heading west toward Three Corners, where there's much illegal smuggling thru the Organ Pipe National Monument (which they've trashed).10-1 he's a pinko University of Arizona 'student' from someplace other than Arizona.

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Then when the UOA student gets his a$$ spanked after provoking authorities, he cried foul and whines on the Internet.

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Be glad you're in Oregon. Otherwise you'd maybe appreciate the Border Patrol... 'n NO... they're hardly JBT's. JBT's would'a dragged Mr go-lookin' for a confrontation Camera jerk thru the window 'n tazed his ass for drill. Had I been in the vehicle behind him I would applaud. Some people need an ass kickin' now 'n then. If I ever run across him in some remote rest area... I'll give him somethin' to record.

"I don't care if they catch a drug smuggler in 1 car out of 10, our essential liberties are more important than their glorified "fishing expedition."

You're either totally ignorant... or an idiot. You have no freakin' idea what goes across this border... from drugs to human trafficking and even terrorists. Your 'essential liberties' are not always carte blanche free ride. Actually... you don't even have a dog in this fight. I appreciate that Border Patrol has got my back down there.

I appreciate the helo's 'n light planes I see makin' the rounds as well. They're the closest thing we've got to the Cavalry.

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GWbiker wrote:

Sonora Rebel wrote:

I live about 10 minutes north of that particular check point on 86. He's heading west toward Three Corners, where there's much illegal smuggling thru the Organ Pipe National Monument (which they've trashed).10-1 he's a pinko University of Arizona 'student' from someplace other than Arizona.

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Then when the UOA student gets his a$$ spanked after provoking authorities, he cried foul and whines on the Internet.

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He thinks he's a YouTube star... 'you know who I am?...' One of the BP guys mentioned Ohio plates... so he's a damn yankee to boot. I'd take him for 'disorderly conduct, failure to obey' 'n tow his car to the Nogales impound lot... or Ajo...

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Be glad you're in Oregon. Otherwise you'd maybe appreciate the Border Patrol... 'n NO... they're hardly JBT's. JBT's would'a dragged Mr go-lookin' for a confrontation Camera jerk thru the window 'n tazed his ass for drill. Had I been in the vehicle behind him I would applaud. Some people need an ass kickin' now 'n then. If I ever run across him in some remote rest area... I'll give him somethin' to record.

"I don't care if they catch a drug smuggler in 1 car out of 10, our essential liberties are more important than their glorified "fishing expedition."

You're either totally ignorant... or an idiot. You have no freakin' idea what goes across this border... from drugs to human trafficking and even terrorists. Your 'essential liberties' are not always carte blanche free ride. Actually... you don't even have a dog in this fight. I appreciate that Border Patrol has got my back down there.

I appreciate the helo's 'n light planes I see makin' the rounds as well. They're the closest thing we've got to the Cavalry.

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I’m always amazed at how quickly people are willing to give up their liberty for some sense of security, or in this case the liberty of others.

I find it offensive in more ways than I care to count that an American citizen (I’m assuming you are one) would endorse or recommend an arm of US law enforcement forcefully remove an American citizen, illegally stopped, from their vehicle and then abusing them with slightly less than lethal force. I’m very concerned about people like you who threaten people they don’t know, view our liberty so lightly but otherwise encourage the exercise of the RKBA.

No arm of the government has a right to restrict the movement of US citizens and/or question them simply because it may lead to the intervention of some possible crime, be the odds 1 in 10 or 1 in 10,000.

I do have a dog in this fight just as Orygunner and every other citizen does. As for me, I’m an active duty military officer with more than 27 years of service in defense ofthis great Nation. I take my oath seriously and it begins, “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend The Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” And The Constitution of the United States of America includes The Bill of Rights. In case you haven’t read it in a while please see Amendment IV below.

Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I recommend you reconsider your threatening statement that the guy in the video van “need an ass kickin'” and that you’ll “give him somethin' to record.” He may well be as serious about the second amendment as he is the fourth.

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Sonora Rebel, I would appreciate the border patrol a lot more, if they'd stay on the border where they belong and did a better job at protecting it. You should see some of the other videos where people tried to stand up for their rights at these checkpoints and cave in to the intimidation tactics of these thugs. There's another great one where the guy sits there literally 1/2 hour through multiple indimidation tactics, and in the end, they have to let him go, because he's RIGHT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFS7oZtE8Ks&feature=PlayList&p=7BC956C2E15751BE&index=27

It probably would have been over a lot shorter, but he made the mistake of arguing with them. That's one thing the other guy did was refuse to argue, just repeated himself ad nausem.

I find it amazing that you seem to be defending the practice (internal suspicionless checkpoints), but in several other parts you complain about how Phoenix is now the 2nd kidnapping capitol of the country, and how much stuff still gets across the border. But you defend what the border patrol is doing. What, would you like more of these checkpoints or something? What do you propose as a solution? Since you're down in the thick of it, what solution do you think is worth the price of liberty?

I don't think there is an answer. As long as we have freedom, we will have criminals. Infringing on our liberty will not have much of an effect on the number of criminals except make more criminals out of otherwise good people who value their freedom more than following oppressive laws.

So, what do you think should be done to secure our border and keep us safe? What's the best course of action, Sonora Rebel?

...Orygunner...

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Back to the original topic:

I’ve lived in Arizona, southern California, and Texas. Anyone other than a member of La Raza knows our borders need fixing, but DHS and the US Border Patrol isn’t going to do it under the current rules of engagement (ROE). But our military doesn’t belong on the border.

We aren’t being invaded by an armed force, nor an insurgency, but by criminals. If our law enforcement agencies can’t fix the problem under their ROE, the military can’t fix it either – unless the ROE are changed. It’s all about the ROE – when we prevent our law enforcement agencies from addressing the challenges with the proper firepower and all the supporting mechanisms necessary (justice system and federal immigration controls just to begin with) we’ll never be able to prevent illegal immigration and the free flow of criminal elements into our sovereign Nation.

This is a law enforcement issue and law enforcement needs to be properly trained, equipped and supported to enforce our laws.

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JosephMingle wrote:

(SOME AWESOME STUFF IN RESPONSE TO SONORA REBEL)

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Thanks, JosephMingle! That was almost exactly what I wanted to say, but I didn't want to run too long winded, and you said it better anyhow.

+1

...Yeah, offensive. That's was the word I was looking for to describe his attitude...
...Orygunner...

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JosephMingle wrote:

Back to the original topic:

I’ve lived in Arizona, southern California, and Texas. Anyone other than a member of La Raza knows our borders need fixing, but DHS and the US Border Patrol isn’t going to do it under the current rules of engagement (ROE). But our military doesn’t belong on the border.

We aren’t being invaded by an armed force, nor an insurgency, but by criminals. If our law enforcement agencies can’t fix the problem under their ROE, the military can’t fix it either – unless the ROE are changed. It’s all about the ROE – when we prevent our law enforcement agencies from addressing the challenges with the proper firepower and all the supporting mechanisms necessary (justice system and federal immigration controls just to begin with) we’ll never be able to prevent illegal immigration and the free flow of criminal elements into our sovereign Nation.

This is a law enforcement issue and law enforcement needs to be properly trained, equipped and supported to enforce our laws.

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You have a very good point, but I think I disagree with some of it.

Is protecting our border the job of the US Government, or of the people?

If it's the responsibility of the US Government, I think the Military would be the best choice. If the influx of people, criminals, terrorists and contraband isn't a national security threat, what is? But they need to stay firmly on the border and stop the illegal immigration then and there. If someone slips though, then it's local law enforcement's job, NOT the military.

If protecting the border isresponsibility of the people, then damnit we need the ability to do so. When I first heard of the MinuteMen, my first thought was "About damned time!" Then I found out how neutered they were - They can'taffect any arrests, just watch from a distance and call into the border patrol. We ought to be able to stop illegal immigrants at gunpoint and herd them back to the border, in my opinion. Stop and turn around, or we'll shoot!

Whose job is it?

...Orygunner...

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Orygunner wrote:

You have a very good point, but I think I disagree with some of it.

Is protecting our border the job of the US Government, or of the people?

If it's the responsibility of the US Government, I think the Military would be the best choice. If the influx of people, criminals, terrorists and contraband isn't a national security threat, what is? But they need to stay firmly on the border and stop the illegal immigration then and there. If someone slips though, then it's local law enforcement's job, NOT the military.

If protecting the border isresponsibility of the people, then damnit we need the ability to do so. When I first heard of the MinuteMen, my first thought was "About damned time!" Then I found out how neutered they were - They can'taffect any arrests, just watch from a distance and call into the border patrol. We ought to be able to stop illegal immigrants at gunpoint and herd them back to the border, in my opinion. Stop and turn around, or we'll shoot!

Whose job is it?

...Orygunner...

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Actually your opinion is more legally correct than it might first appear. But let me begin by saying there is no simple answer to your bottom line question. The truth is we have departed so far from what is constitutionally correct that a border enforcement fix appears to me to be impossible at this point. We are supposed to be a Republic of sovereign states. If that were in fact still true, then the several states would take action to protect their sovereignty. Of course the Nation as a whole has a vested interest in preventing illegal immigration and as such I believe the Federal Government should provide every manner of assistance in enforcing the laws, especially when many of the laws broken by illegal aliens are federal. Unfortunately those states in many cases don’t want our current immigration laws enforced regardless of whether the Federal Government is willing and able to do so or not. And of course the Federal Government doesn’t appear too eager to fix it either.

The military is an instrument of national power. Its fundamental purpose is to defend the country from attack (preferably through deterrence but when that fails by the application of force) and carry out our national strategic objectives. However, in the simplest terms, the military kills belligerent people and breaks their things until they give up. That’s it in a nutshell.

What would we expect to gain by placing our military forces on the border? What would be their mission? Deterrence? You state the Minute Men cannot arrest though in fact they can arrest anyone they see committing a crime since citizens inherently have a constitutionally protected right to arrest – it’s called citizen’s arrest. Even the District of Columbia has laws codifying this age old common law [District of Columbia Law 23- 582(b)] (Of course trying this in DC unarmed might be ill advised). So citizens on the border have greater legal authorities and remedies than military personnel should they ever deploy to our borders.

The border patrol and law enforcement agencies have legal authorities the military does not have. The military could not engage illegal aliens attempting to cross our border, even if we knew for a fact that they were armed and carrying narcotics.

The most effective and efficient way to stop illegal immigration is to turn off the enticements that bring illegal aliens across our borders. Quit providing public services to them. Send them back by the most economical means available. Deny them employment and prosecute the businesses that hire them. Prosecute the guy that picks up three “day workers” in front of the Home Depot to paint his house or lay sod for cash otherwise denying employment to the legitimate small businesses that make up his community. That’s the only way we’re going to resolve this.

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Given the hitgh unemployment in this country now, it seems that we could solve to problems at once. By hiring and training those that have lost their jobs and send them to the border, to bolster the BP as deputy patrol officers.

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

10-1 he's a pinko University of Arizona 'student' from someplace other than Arizona.

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I'll take that, and raise you Infinity-to-nothing that he's an American citizen who hasn't crossed the border, and should be free to travel within the United States without having his papers demanded of him.

"Ihre Papieren, bitte!" doesn't become more acceptable just because there are a lot of Mexicans desperate to roof houses and dig ditches in America.

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The vast majority of people who actually LIVE here along the border... appreciate and cooperate with the Border Patrol. They 'do' patrol the border areas where vehicles cannot go. This is done on foot... horseback... and from the air. People such as Mr YouTube never see 'em 'cause they never venture off the paved roads. It seems that many of YOU would prefer that the Border Patrol do 'nothing' to attempt to stem this daily invasion.

We have a freakin' war goin' on just south of the border... and it's encroaching on my backyard. So... y'all can whine about your 'rights'... but I prefer to cooperate in this activity... rather than be left to my own devices. The ranchers in Douglas (Cochise County) have first hand experience in being sucessfully sued by these pro-illegal outfits associated with La Raza when left to their own devices of defending their property.

You people elsewhere do not have these illegals comin' thru your property. It's illegal to hire/employ illegals in Arizona (finally). There are no 'sanctuary' cities.

Anyway... feel free to whine about your 'rights'... while the country continues to be plagued with these invaders... I'll gladly tell the BP (if they even ask) my nationality. They haven't yet... altho one of 'em eyeballed my AK stuck between the seat next to me'n said: "Nice gun!"

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Sonora Rebel, just to clarify a point, I fully support the border patrol and the job the attempt to do securing our borders, at the border. I'm even fine with them stopping someoneNEAR the border, if they have legitimiate reasonable cause to believe they bypassed a border checkpoint and they have reasonable cause that someone is smuggling something or someone into the country

It's a very strange claim that the protections of the US Constitution against unreasonable search and seizure don't apply within the United States. If you're happy waiving your rights because you think it makes you safer, you go right ahead.

I still just can't reconcile how someone who's seems to support the RKBA and Open Carry can be such a trusting sheeple when it comes to the rest of your rights, and so critical of someone else choosing to exercise theirs.

Sonora Rebel, where is your line? What rights will you stand up for and which ones will you willingly waive? How about if at one of these internal checkpoints,they spotted you were carrying a firearm. They decided that was suspicious, and pulled you over to secondary - would you be fine with that?

What if they confiscated your firearm from you; for their safety, of course, and to run a serial number check. Because they're doing such a good job protecting you, you'djust accept that as the price you pay for safety? What if they decided to keep it because they weren't able to determine if it was really yours? Would you still feel the same way?

How about if because you're carrying a firearm, they decided to tear your car apart? Everything, every compartment, every cupholder, manual, floormat and paperclip, even the damn door panels, pulled out of the car, and laid out on the pavement next to it. Then YOU have to put everything back in and back together yourself. Are you still OK with it because you have nothing to hide? Because you think they're doing a good job and you still appreciate all they do to keep you safe?

I don't use "What Ifs" to prove points, I'm using them here to try and understand where your limit is. How much would you be willing to stand for before you decide your remaining liberty is more important than the (false sense of) security these internal suspicionless checkpoints provide?

As irritated as I would be if any of that happened while I was crossing the border, I would understand that by the act of crossing the border, I waive some of my rights. I wouldn't be happy, but I would allow it. However,I refuse to be subjected to unreasonable search and seizure, or harrassment and intimidation within our own country, while minding my own business, travelling on a public road and breaking no laws.

That's my only argument. Not against the fine men and women of the Border Patrol, just their policies in creating and using these suspicionless internal checkpoints on public roadsmiles from the US Border.

Please tell me -at what point when your rights are infringed would you feel these checkpoints were unreasonable?

...Orygunner...

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Dude... come down here... live here... and then see if you still get your panties inna wad. I don't do 'what if's. I do what is. The dynamic of this desert is beyond you. You can't sem to get your head around what the 'border' and the attendant problems actually is. None of ya can. this ain't like San Ysidro, San Luis, Agua Prietaor even Nogales.Yahoo's like camera boy live in the city... I s'pose he gets off doin' that kind'a crap. A nobody gettin' attention. A goof.

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Hey Ory, when will Oregon mandate a "Castle Doctrine" to protect a citizen from legal action when that citizen exercises his self defense rights?

Arizona has a Castle Doctrine.

When will Oregon accept my valid Arizona CCW permit to carry a weapon while visiting your state.

Arizona recognizes your right to carry a weapon. Hell, Arizona accepts a valid carry permit from ALL states.

The there's the Oregon motorcycle helmet law....oops. Not OC related.

Ory, you really should get your own house in order.:uhoh:

We get along fine with the BP agents, so why not just leave us alone!

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If I seesomeone doing something obviously wrong, like beating the crap out of a child, or robbing a convenience store, do I need to "walk in his shoes" or "see where he lives" to know what he's doing is wrong?

In this case I see a government infringing on the protected rights of the people within it's borders. What does living there have to do with it? If it's wrong, what justification is going to make it all right? I really don't give a flying fudgesicle what excuses anyone comes up with. These internal suspicionless checkpoints are not an appropriate solution to the problem.

Sonora Rebel, I think it will be obvious to anyone reading this thread that you are full of nothing but hot air and bulls**t. You've refused to answer any questions or give any concrete answers. You've just repeated over and over that we just don't understand, and if we lived there we'd think differently, butonly offer empty justification and no concrete proof.Youclaim to stand up for consitutional rights on this board while condemming others for standing up for theirs.

I've tried finding statistics on internal immigration checkpoints, and I would think that if if they were doing such a great job, statistics would be easy to find. Maybe my Google-fu is weak, but the best statistics I can find is 1 in 200 vehicles stopped at an internal checkpoint (NOT at the border) yielded an illegal alien. At least 200 people's rights violated, to catch one illegal alien. Woo hoo! Another website claims in over 40,000 vehicles stopped in 10 months, a set of internal suspicionless checkpoints only detained about 100 illegal aliens and a dozen criminals.

If that's worth it to you, I'm done arguing with a hypocrite.

...Orygunner...

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I've tried finding statistics on internal immigration checkpoints, and I would think that if if they were doing such a great job, statistics would be easy to find. Maybe my Google-fu is weak, but the best statistics I can find is 1 in 200 vehicles stopped at an internal checkpoint (NOT at the border) yielded an illegal alien. At least 200 people's rights violated, to catch one illegal alien. Woo hoo! Another website claims in over 40,000 vehicles stopped in 10 months, a set of internal suspicionless checkpoints only detained about 100 illegal aliens and a dozen criminals.

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Did you Google any info concerning the huge seizures of illegal drugs at Arizona BP check points? Or doesn't that play into your argument?

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Like I really care whatany yahooin Oregon 'thinks' about anythingthey have yet to experience. BP works for us... we don't have a problem with 'em.We don't cause problems with 'em or for 'em. They defend us against this illegal incursion and criminal activity. Without 'em we'd be overrun. In my area there's about five Deputies covering 155 sq. miles per shift. Then there's the Rez... and the Tohono O'ohdam (Papago/Pima) tribal police are few 'n far between... but the Rez cops have the same concerns. This is part of the old 'wild west'... with the same problems... and much the same attitudes. You don't like it... tuff munchies~!

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GWbiker wrote:

I've tried finding statistics on internal immigration checkpoints, and I would think that if if they were doing such a great job, statistics would be easy to find. Maybe my Google-fu is weak, but the best statistics I can find is 1 in 200 vehicles stopped at an internal checkpoint (NOT at the border) yielded an illegal alien. At least 200 people's rights violated, to catch one illegal alien. Woo hoo! Another website claims in over 40,000 vehicles stopped in 10 months, a set of internal suspicionless checkpoints only detained about 100 illegal aliens and a dozen criminals.

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Did you Google any info concerning the huge seizures of illegal drugs at Arizona BP check points? Or doesn't that play into your argument?

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(readjusts his No Compromise hat)

Quite frankly, no. If you believe the ends justify the means, then where does the compromise of our rights end?

If you think it's a good idea to sacrifice your rights for the greater good, where should it stop? If you think they should be able tostop a vehicle on a public road 100 miles from the border,and demand proof of citizenship and bully people into a search with no reasonable suspicion, then why don't we also allow the government to:

Stop us on the street and demand our identification and a search of our person?

Randomly search people's homes?

Search our vehicles, anytime, anywhere?

If we were somehow crazy to allow the Federal Government to repeal the 4th Amendment, can you imagineof all the illegal drugs they would find if they simply searched everyone, their homes and vehicles! Imagine how many illegal aliens, terrorists and criminalsthey would find!

Any sane person with any balls that values their freedom wouldn't stand for that kind of abuse of government power over a sovereign people, no matter what benefit to society it may have by removing (some of the) drugs, illegal aliens, or criminals from our streets. So what sense does it make to allow the current abuse of rights for the whatever the benefit it claims to provide?

This country isn't great because our powerful government protects us, we are great because we are the freest country in the world. Every chip away from that liberty, every compromise of our rightsleads us closer towards our fall. Our government has grown too big for it's britches, and seeks to control every aspect of our life, all under the guise of"Safety" and the "Public Good." I say F*** Safety and F*** the Public Good! I would much rather live as a free man in a "dangerous" country with all my inalienable rights intact and protected, than to be coddled and "kept safe" by a socialist "nanny state" that claims to keep me safe but oppressed and controlled.

That's the root of what I believe in, and that is why I choose not to compromise my rights.

...Orygunner...