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Thread: Port Authority Police encounter. (Pittsburgh)

  1. #1
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    Cross post from PAFOA

    At approximately 6:00PM today, I left work at station square and headed for the parking lot to head for lunch. I got to the car and unlocked the trunk and the box I store my firearm in. I holstered up, added my spare mag to my belt, and proceeded to my car. In the back of the lot was a Port Authority Police car. As soon as I entered my car and pulled out, the police car pulled me over.

    The police officer came up to the car and told me to keep both hands on the wheel, (which is were they were already). The officer called for backup units and no less that 5 more cars came!!! Officer O'Malley proceeded to tell me that when you have a firearm in a car, it has to be concealed. I advised him that he was incorrect and explained that while carrying in a vehicle required me to have an LTCF, It didn't have to be concealed. I gave officer O'Malley my permit and I was made to exit the car and disarmed.

    The backup units waited with me while Officer O'Malley made a few phone calls. The officer eventually came back and stated that I was correct. The officer only had a very rudimentary training on firearms, and open carry was not covered. He was also taught incorrectly on carry in a vehicle. My firearm and spare mag were returned and the encounter ended amicably with officer shaking my hand and thanking me for my cooperation.

    All in all a good encounter. If anyone here is a Port Authority Officer, and/or can give me the address from where the Port Authority Police are stationed, I would greatly appreciate it as I want to drop a message to their CO.

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    http://www.portauthority.org/PAAC/ta...1/Default.aspx

    Under "Company Info" you can file a complaint, comment, or leave a message of praise.

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    Realize you only have his word as to training error, lack of OC training, and rudimentary firearm law training.

    I would gently urge you to reconsider whether it was all in all a good encounter.

    A law-abiding citizen was seized without clear and unquestionable authority of law; his personal property as well.

    If nothing else, he needs a little training that crooks don't "holster up" and casually get in their car as though doing something totally legal.

    I recommend a formal complaint. The situation will sort itself out. If the supervisors find that he was mistrained and so forth, he'll be alright.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Falcon118 wrote:
    All in all a good encounter.
    You know, if you ignore the events of the encounter.

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    I contacted the Port Authority Police department and spoke with the dispatcher to make my request to receive a copy of the report that was made yesterday. At first the dispatched told me that they only make reports on accidents, but when I provided her with my name and the name of the officer involved, she found the report. The dispatcher was unable to authorize giving me a copy of the report, but is taking it to the chief for his review. I am to call back in approx 1 hour. Will update then.

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    I contacted the police dispatcher again. I was informed that I am able to get a copy of the police report at a cost of $10. I will be sending in the check today, and will advise of the contents of the report when I receive it.

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    Cant wait to hear what it has to say. Sounds like you handled yourself very well.

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    This might get interesting soon...

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    $10 for a report??

    If the copaccurately told you about his training, it seems like you ought to contact the training officer(s), at a minimum.

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    I will be attempting to arrainge a meeting between the station chief and myself once I get a copy of the report. The only problem is the station house is located "On the busway" and is inaccessable to the public. I will be calling to speak with the chief about the metting once I and my attorney look at the report.

    Disclaimer: I do not as yet have any intention of taking legal action against the police dept. at this time. What actions I take next will directly relate to how my conversation with the chief goes. I retain an attorney for just this kind of circumstance.

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    I received a copy of the report today and was cleared to post it as it is too late to be changed. I would scan it, but my scanner isn't working.. here it is in text.

    Narrative:

    On the above date/time, I as patrolling the transportation system service area in the Wabash HOV parking lot when the following incident occured. I did observe the actor, later identified as Michael *********, open the trunk of his vehicle and remove a handgun which he placed in a holster on his hip. He then entered his vehicle and started to drive from the parking lot.

    As per an investigatory stop, I initiated a traffic stop, and did ask the driver for both his drivers license and concealed permit carry license which he provided. I was joined on scene by Lt. Sullivan and we removed the driver from the vehicle and temporarily took possesion of the handgun until my investigation was complete. His drivers license and concealed permit were valid and he was given back the handgun and allowed to leave without further incident.

    End report.

    B O'Mallyer, Lt. Sullivan, Ofc Dipippa, Ofc Atkins.

    I will be following up with Chief McCauley at his earliest convienience. Further action will be determined at that time.

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    I have two issues here . . .

    1. $10 for a report is a crime in itself. It should be provided to all parties involved at no cost. They should pay you $10 for wasting your valuable time!!!

    2. The report contains erroneous language proving the lack of education on the officer. There is no such thing as an "concealed permit carry license."

    He needs to learn that it has nothing to do with "CONCEAL," it is a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) period. I get tired of people throwing around the words "conceal permit," no such thing in our Commonwealth. A big pet peeve of mine.

    Thanks, Farmer Troy


    Falcon118 wrote:
    I received a copy of the report today and was cleared to post it as it is too late to be changed. I would scan it, but my scanner isn't working.. here it is in text.

    Narrative:

    On the above date/time, I as patrolling the transportation system service area in the Wabash HOV parking lot when the following incident occured. I did observe the actor, later identified as Michael *********, open the trunk of his vehicle and remove a handgun which he placed in a holster on his hip. He then entered his vehicle and started to drive from the parking lot.

    As per an investigatory stop, I initiated a traffic stop, and did ask the driver for both his drivers license and concealed permit carry license which he provided. I was joined on scene by Lt. Sullivan and we removed the driver from the vehicle and temporarily took possesion of the handgun until my investigation was complete. His drivers license and concealed permit were valid and he was given back the handgun and allowed to leave without further incident.

    End report.

    B O'Mallyer, Lt. Sullivan, Ofc Dipippa, Ofc Atkins.

    I will be following up with Chief McCauley at his earliest convienience. Further action will be determined at that time.

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    Farmer Troy wrote:
    snip.....
    The report contains erroneous language proving the lack of education on the officer. There is no such thing as an "concealed permit carry license."

    He needs to learn that it has nothing to do with "CONCEAL," it is a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) period. I get tired of people throwing around the words "conceal permit," no such thing in our Commonwealth. A big pet peeve of mine.
    Misquoting the legal definition has a major impact of the perception of the public and LEAs too. A lie repeated often enough.......etc.

    Fortunately we do not need a license/permit in Va. to OC even in a vehicle. Na naa na naa

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    I do find it misleading though to call it a License to carry a firearm. I mean, OC is legal on foot everywhere except Philadelphia and as such you dont NEED an LTCF in order to carry. You need it to carry concealed or in a car (which by a very broad definition could be considered concealed). So, though its CALLED a License to Carry it really is a License to carry concealed. A LTCCF if you will.

    In an OT related matter I find that the Police of Pittsburgh are finally getting it in terms of Open Carrying. As I was walking to the SouthSide a fortnight ago around 4pm an umarked pulled up beside me and called me over. They asked me how I was doing and what my revolver was for. I told them for my protection. They said cool, got some calls (probably one) when i walked over the bridge (Iron Metal Bridge) that some guy had a gun and had to check it out. From their demeanor I feel that it was the 911 operators fault and the person who called who made mountains out of nothing.

    Anyways, the younger plain clothes guy asked if I had a license and I said I did. Before I said I didn't need one the older detective said, "It's not concealed, he doesn't need it or need to show you that".

    A pair of Uniforms showed up and we all just chatted a bit about what i was carrying and how people get irrational about guns and how everyone should carry. They wished me a good day and I was on my way again.

    Like I said, the word is spreading and even if the some don't know right away like the young detective or the Port Authority officer they are being quickly informed.

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    Not necessarily . . . as in the case described, and as you say in your point below . . . it is a license to carry a firearm inside a vehicle . . . open or concealed.

    Farmer Troy

    No wonder there is so much confusion . . . it's not clearly spelled out in the constitution.


    Prophet wrote:
    I do find it misleading though to call it a License to carry a firearm. I mean, OC is legal on foot everywhere except Philadelphia and as such you dont NEED an LTCF in order to carry. You need it to carry concealed or in a car (which by a very broad definition could be considered concealed). So, though its CALLED a License to Carry it really is a License to carry concealed. A LTCCF if you will.".

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    Prophet wrote:
    snip.....
    Like I said, the word is spreading and even if the some don't know right away like the young detective or the Port Authority officer they are being quickly informed.
    Good encounter all in all.

    Still they felt the need to check you out up close and personal - consensual contact/conversation without negative overtones I grant you; nevertheless, they could simply have observed you and reached the same conclusion w/o stopping you.

    When that (no stop) starts happening with regularity, then I'll really feel that real progress is being made. Better yet when that is determined at the 911 call level.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Your right Grapeshot but this could be a department policy for ANY calls. IE if some nosy nellie calls in and says there is someone suspicious walking down the street and the only thing suspicious is that she doesnt know him and he doesn't live in that neighborhood they may be required by the department to stop by and say hi. I in no way agree or condone it but that could just be the regulation. Plus, with the game of telephone from the first emotionally retarded caller who freaks out over a gun, to the 911 operator, to the Police dispatcher to the nearest patrol car MWAG could turn into TERRORIST SHOOTIN UP THE PLACE. I'd rather not be bothered at all but if their boss tell them to have a minute chat with me for insurance purposes I'm not gonna get too heated. Especially since I didn't make any attempt to leave (i wasnt in a rush). Eventually, with the passive awareness that OC produces even being called on will become less and less an occurance.

    As to the insurance, the dept. reg might make the officers speak to someone that they have been called upon because if they didnt and that person did commit a crime they city could be sued.

    Then again, maybe im just really happy i havent been thrown in cuffs in almost a year that im gettin a little soft.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    No complaint about the conduct of either yourself Prophet or the LEOs. I'm just guilty of "in a perfect world" thinking.

    There is a heap of difference between reality and fantasy but then again in a perfect world.........

    BTW - if your not getting the attention to which you've grown accustomed, maybe you're not getting out enough.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Could it be that he stopped you because if you did not have an LTCF then you would have been commiting a crime by entering the vehicle with a loaded handgun?

    I don't know whether case law would consider it RS to see such an action happen and allow the checking of whether a license is held by the person. Could that be related to asking for ID from someone trying to buy alcohol, who looks underage?

    Do/should they have authority to verify you have the LTCF when they see you doing something that would be illegal without one (entering a vehicle)?

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    JSK333 wrote:
    Could it be that he stopped you because if you did not have an LTCF then you would have been commiting a crime by entering the vehicle with a loaded handgun?

    I don't know whether case law would consider it RS to see such an action happen and allow the checking of whether a license is held by the person. Could that be related to asking for ID from someone trying to buy alcohol, who looks underage?

    Do/should they have authority to verify you have the LTCF when they see you doing something that would be illegal without one (entering a vehicle)?
    No its comparable to stopping a motorist because they might not have a driver's license or checking the dotctor's medical license before he is allowed to see his patients - no RAS that a crime was being or about to be committed.

    Checking ID at point of sale involves a private business owner and private property.

    It is not illegal to enter your vehicle with gun and no permit - it is illegal to carry it there. Someone opens their car door, sits down, shuts the door and secures their gun in a lockbox and you think/suggest that is an illegal act? Reverse that when they get out is OK too. No prize in your Crackerjack box!

    BTW - we don't have a "show me zour paperz" law .....yet.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Sometimes what we think is logical is not always the law. Several people were convicted in Ohio of firearm transport violations who thought what they were doing was fine. I'm sure it happens in other States too. Just because we think it's logical to be able to legally secure a firearm in a vehicle doesn't mean the law does not allows for prosecution in some area. I don't know relevant PA case law, but I'm sure someone like Mike does.

    I wasn't only refering to an employee asking for ID for liquor. I imagine an LEO in the presence of such a transaction could do the same if they thought the person was underage.

    You may have also jumped to conclusions about my intentions, as well as missed my question marks. I wasn't giving my opinion as to what was the proper thing for the LEO to do, rather I was giving a possibility as to what his reasoning was. Hence the "?'s".

    As for the Nazi reference, you may not be familiar with California's "check if loaded" law. The LEOs can legally stop a person OC'ing to be sure it is not loaded. So, indeed, the slope is already quite slippery!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    JSK333 wrote:
    Sometimes what we think is logical is not always the law. Several people were convicted in Ohio of firearm transport violations who thought what they were doing was fine. I'm sure it happens in other States too. Just because we think it's logical to be able to legally secure a firearm in a vehicle doesn't mean the law does not allows for prosecution in some area. I don't know relevant PA case law, but I'm sure someone like Mike does.

    I wasn't only refering to an employee asking for ID for liquor. I imagine an LEO in the presence of such a transaction could do the same if they thought the person was underage.

    You may have also jumped to conclusions about my intentions, as well as missed my question marks. I wasn't giving my opinion as to what was the proper thing for the LEO to do, rather I was giving a possibility as to what his reasoning was. Hence the "?'s".

    As for the Nazi reference, you may not be familiar with California's "check if loaded" law. The LEOs can legally stop a person OC'ing to be sure it is not loaded. So, indeed, the slope is already quite slippery!
    Did not intend to make any of my response appear as a flame - it was not so.

    A LEO requesting ID of a liquor purchaser, may have RAS if that person looks 15yo but such would not be valid reason if I were the purchaser - I remember WWII personally. I have refused "request/demand for ID from LEO wherein my "crime" was OCing - was not formally detained either.

    Yes a LEO can arrest someone for the wrong reason(s) and in so doing cost you time and money. Living in fear of that is not my choice - though I will use common sense. Should the line be crossed by LE or anyone else, it is our job to correct that. When necessary, settlements or awards are great motivators to correcting their actions.

    Know the "check if loaded" law and some of the others in Ca. Why do you think some use a "K" when spelling that state. The Nazi laws were "legal" too and in fact are said to be the model for many of our gun control laws here.

    Staying current and understanding Va. laws and those of the states into which I travel such as Pa. is to my benefit with little doubt. Will be in Pa. this week-end in fact.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    ugh. In my making sure I'm not going to get unlawfully harassed this year, I forgot about the Port Authority officers. The Pittsburgh management of the PD had quite a conversation with zone management after I pushed a very loud complaint about my encounter with an officer who cuffed me for lawfully open carrying on foot.

    The current staff of the Allegheny sheriff's office also knows OC, to of which they thought it was not, which at one point the old staff knew according to an old forum post. I corrected them, almost all of them were thankful. One decided to have an outburst and tell me he is going to "pop" me if I'm walking in his neighborhood.

    I'll call in the morning to see if management can inform their officers about open carry. The MPOETC training in Pittsburgh is in September, not soon enough for me since I'll be in Pittsburgh this coming July.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
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    Please stay in Alaska, thanks in advance!

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Please stop trolling the open carry forums, thanks!

    Note: this is the second low poster which has attacked me this week. We can all take a guess at that one.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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