Never Call To Check On The Progress Of Your License

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Regular readers here will know that your file is deemed complete 30 days from receipt, unless the State asks for explanatory information within those 30 days.

Some people, however, believe that you should call the State at 60 days to see if your file is complete. These people have not kept up on their readings, because if they had been studious, they would know that such a call is pointless.

Unless the State makes an inquiry within 30 days, your file is complete on Day 31. Don't let anyone talk you out of your rights are trick you into making pointless and self-defeating phone calls.

Keep stopping by Opencarry.org, the #1 forum regarding Florida Concealed Carry issues.

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All right smoking, we are going to have to disagree again. I have advocated trying to work within the system as well as being prepared to enforce your rights. I have therefore posted the following recommendations to try and help people get their license as fast as possible yet still be ready and able to enforce their rights.

1. Send applications certified, return receipt requested .
2. Day 60-70 call and see where you are in the process, politely insist that they comply with the 90 day provision in 790 and Section 120.60
3. Inform that you intend to send a default notice on day 91 if not issued.
4. If they claim to be missing information tell them that you will send the missing info immediately, but the failure to notify you within 30 days of receipt means that the 90 day clock is running and should be met.
5. Send the default notice by certified addressed to the agency clerk.

6. While I am not suggesting that anyone try to be a test case by carrying. If they get enough notices it might force some further funding to catch up.

7. Do not let them tell you that 120.60 is not applicable to 790. If they make the claim ask for a citation to back it up.

There is no reason not to call and be delayed in getting the real thing because you and I both know what the likely outcome of someone presenting the default notice to a cop is. Lets face it if the cops knew the law and followed it there would be no civil rights violations and no need for a lot of trials.

I am just suggesting that they call to try and make sure things are right so that they get the real thing as soon as possible.

THIS POST IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION ONLY AND IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, NO ATTORNEY CLIENT RELATIONSHIP IS INTENDED OR IMPLIED

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What is the purpose of #4, shouldn't the response be that they can put the
request in with your permit when they send it to you, and you will fill it out
at that time?

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fridaddy wrote:

All right smoking, we are going to have to disagree again. I have advocated trying to work within the system as well as being prepared to enforce your rights. I have therefore posted the following recommendations to try and help people get their license as fast as possible yet still be ready and able to enforce their rights.

2. Day 60-70 call and see where you are in the process, politely insist that they comply with the 90 day provision in 790 and Section 120.60
3. Inform that you intend to send a default notice on day 91 if not issued.

There is no reason not to call and be delayed in getting the real thing because you and I both know what the likely outcome of someone presenting the default notice to a cop is. Lets face it if the cops knew the law and followed it there would be no civil rights violations and no need for a lot of trials.

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I disagree. I do not believe that you can agree to provide further information and not tacitly admit that your file is not complete. The issue of "completeness" is the locus of 120.60 litigation and is the weakness in the statute that the State attempts to exploit to full advantage. Don't remove any boards in your floor.

Agreeing to provide further information is not contemplated in the statute, so why take a step that could place yourself at procedural disadvantage? Every obligation is on the State to make a response. Leave the burden there. Making a call and learning of a deficiency removes the applicant's clean hands and gives a judge or a hearing officer a peg upon which to hang a denial or adverse ruling. Judges are advocates for the State, so don't make their job any easier. Worse, agreeing to provide information and failing to do so utterly destroys one's clean hands and erases any credible claim one may lay to, if not ultimate default approval, then certainly in immediately acting upon the presumption of automatic, unqualified, default approval.

It is tactically risky to introduce steps into the process that are not contemplated by statute. Keep your mouth shut and your powder dry, and preserve your advantage.

The licensing process is adversarial and should be conducted at arm's length. Make your adversary work within the rules, just as they make you work within the rules. Does DOACS compromise on the precision with which the application must be completed? of course, not. This is a shall-issue license by date certain. Let your opponent play his piece before you play yours.

I absolutely do not counsel opening your mouth. There is no improvement to one's position from such communication. If you must call, do so on Day 92, after DOACS has signed in acceptance of your default letter.

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SlackwareRobert wrote:

What is the purpose of #4, shouldn't the response be that they can put the
request in with your permit when they send it to you, and you will fill it out
at that time?

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Exactly. This is the right answer. I love the way you think.

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If it was purely about the advantage for a hearing or court case I would agree. If someone wants to be legal, but also wants protection from wrongful arrest as quickly as possible then they need to get the plastic that the cops recognize sooner rather than later. I do not think that calling to check on the status, and sending in the extra paperwork would hamper your defense if you were caught while using a default license.

My argument would be that I went above and beyond to try and get my regular license, and cooperated even when I was notified late. I do not think that by agreeing to provide the extra information and insisting on the 90 days being met you have waived your rights. I think you can retain your right and comply with the request for info as long as you state that you are not waiving.

As for there is no advantage, are you sure that some permits are not being expedited if you notify a supervisor you are aware of your rights? I am not so sure. I think that the people who call in and assert their rights are getting moved up. Proof no, suspicion yes.

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On this point, we completely disagree, and I might suggest that you're trying to have it both ways. I've read enough opinions and have seen enough fact patterns that I am now fully convinced that any notification creates a limitation.

Far better to deal in absolutes and afford the forum no grey area.

As for those who claim they are being moved to the head of the line, I have no control group, and I have no proof of causality. They may have called AND they may have received their license. The two could be independent. Standing at your window at 7:00 a.m. and commanding the sun to rise also appears effective. It's not like these people are achieving success on Day 10.

If they are successful, good for them. Quite bad for them if they receive adverse notification regarding completeness.

It's so funny to hear some say "Just be patient. It's only X days." Just what days ARE acceptable upon which to be deprived one's rights? Oft times, gun owners are their own worst enemies.

As always, best of luck.

fridaddy wrote:

My argument would be that I went above and beyond to try and get my regular license, and cooperated even when I was notified late. I do not think that by agreeing to provide the extra information and insisting on the 90 days being met you have waived your rights. I think you can retain your right and comply with the request for info as long as you state that you are not waiving.

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I know what should legally happen but lets discuss what is going to really happen based on our different suggestions. I think we can assume as a given that anyone caught carrying and claiming a default license is going to need to call me or someone like me to join them at first appearance court.

Around 90 or 120 days when the dept. finally tells you they need more info, and you say "no I already have a default license" you will get a denial letter which will technically be invalid because you have rightfully claimed a default. But since you got a denial, you can wait until the end of time for a "real" license you will never receive, or you object to the denial and request a hearing. You'll get one in 3 months at the earliest. After the hearing you will wait for another 30-90 days to get an order from the administrative hearing officer, at which point, despite what the law says, you will end up at the back of line at DOACS.

My point is to get legal by claiming the default, and cooperate to get the "real" license as soon as possible. And that is just assuming that they are not expediting the squeaky wheels, which we have no way to know. If they are, then you get an even better result. From a pure legal standpoint I agree that you are right. However were I advising a client, the Bar allows me to consider the realities of the situation as well as my client's legal rights. Your method is what legally should be done, but it does not get the result that most people actually want: the right to carry at 90 days, but still get a "real" license as quickly as possible.

THIS POST IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION ONLY AND IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, NO ATTORNEY CLIENT RELATIONSHIP IS INTENDED OR IMPLIED

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fridaddy
Around 90 or 120 days when the dept. finally tells you they need more info, and you say "no I already have a default license" you will get a denial letter which will technically be invalid because you have rightfully claimed a default.  But since you got a denial, you can wait until the end of time for a "real" license you will never receive, or you object to the denial and request a hearing.  You'll get one in 3 months at the earliest.  After the hearing you will wait for another 30-90 days to get an order from the administrative hearing officer, at which point, despite what the law says, you will end up at the back of line at DOACS.
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Fine. There needs to be a decision adverse to DOACS on this issue in the record.

It would have been expedient for the Founding Fathers to work within King George's system, but America is the result of not bowing to government.

Further, I'm willing to be a test plaintiff if you want to handle a Florida Constitutional Law case. Scroll back through this board, and locate a post called "Thinking About Suing Florida Over Open Carry."

RKBA

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Florida, received my packet/application for CCW permit on 3/10/09, I guess I should receive it around the end of MAY if I'm lucky :cuss: