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Thread: Federal "judge" overturns National Park guns rule

  1. #1
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    This is posted on the national forum at < http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/23320.html >. But have so many square miles of national parks here in Utah it is important to be aware and avoid becoming a criminal.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=5904550

    Court blocks rule allowing guns in national parks March 19th, 2009 @ 7:24pm By MATTHEW DALY, AP Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge has blocked a federal rule allowing people to carry concealed, loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges.
    A decision issued Thursday by [Clinton appointed] U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly overturns a rule issued in the waning days of the Bush administration.
    The rule took effect Jan. 11 and allowed visitors to carry a loaded gun into a park or wildlife refuge as long as the person has a permit for a concealed weapon and the state where the park or refuge is located allows concealed firearms. Previously, guns in parks had been severely restricted.
    The Obama administration had said it was reviewing the Bush rule but had defended it in court.

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    This is posted on the national forum at < http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/23320.html >. But have so many square miles of national parks here in Utah it is important to be aware and avoid becoming a criminal.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=5904550

    Court blocks rule allowing guns in national parks March 19th, 2009 @ 7:24pm By MATTHEW DALY, AP Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge has blocked a federal rule allowing people to carry concealed, loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges.
    A decision issued Thursday by [Clinton appointed] U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly overturns a rule issued in the waning days of the Bush administration.
    The rule took effect Jan. 11 and allowed visitors to carry a loaded gun into a park or wildlife refuge as long as the person has a permit for a concealed weapon and the state where the park or refuge is located allows concealed firearms. Previously, guns in parks had been severely restricted.
    The Obama administration had said it was reviewing the Bush rule but had defended it in court.
    So does this affect us in UTAH being a Federal DISTRICT court in Washington DC?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    So does this affect us in UTAH being a Federal DISTRICT court in Washington DC?
    The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rules for the entire federal government.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    So does this affect us in UTAH being a Federal DISTRICT court in Washington DC?
    The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rules for the entire federal government.
    OUCH until we prevail.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    So does this affect us in UTAH being a Federal DISTRICT court in Washington DC?
    The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rules for the entire federal government.
    OUCH until we prevail.
    are you planning something?




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    fedup wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    So does this affect us in UTAH being a Federal DISTRICT court in Washington DC?
    The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rules for the entire federal government.
    OUCH until we prevail.
    are you planning something?
    I'm suresome legal counter-action mustalready in the works. This isn't something the pro-gun side is going to let go unchallenged.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    I'm suresome legal counter-action mustalready in the works. This isn't something the pro-gun side is going to let go unchallenged.
    Not sure how the pro-gun side does anything unless they have managed to become parties to the suit. It is the feds who were defending the rule change.

    Any bets on whether an Obama led Justice Department will appeal this to the current SCOTUS?
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'm suresome legal counter-action mustalready in the works. This isn't something the pro-gun side is going to let go unchallenged.
    Not sure how the pro-gun side does anything unless they have managed to become parties to the suit. It is the feds who were defending the rule change.

    Any bets on whether an Obama led Justice Department will appeal this to the current SCOTUS?
    How about "friend of the court AMICUS briefs?"

    Not that I know how to do this.... OH, MIKE.......
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    How about "friend of the court AMICUS briefs?"

    Not that I know how to do this.... OH, MIKE.......
    The amicus brief can only be used when there is an actual case before the court. As of now, there is not a case. Unless the feds (or some other party to the suit) appeal, there will be no case.

    That is the problem.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  10. #10
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    This is posted on the national forum at < http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/23320.html >. But have so many square miles of national parks here in Utah it is important to be aware and avoid becoming a criminal.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=5904550

    Court blocks rule allowing guns in national parks March 19th, 2009 @ 7:24pm By MATTHEW DALY, AP Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge has blocked a federal rule allowing people to carry concealed, loaded guns in national parks and wildlife refuges.
    A decision issued Thursday by [Clinton appointed] U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly overturns a rule issued in the waning days of the Bush administration.
    The rule took effect Jan. 11 and allowed visitors to carry a loaded gun into a park or wildlife refuge as long as the person has a permit for a concealed weapon and the state where the park or refuge is located allows concealed firearms. Previously, guns in parks had been severely restricted.
    The Obama administration had said it was reviewing the Bush rule but had defended it in court.
    So what you are saying is that as of RIGHT now.. IF I wanted to go to Zion's as a Permit holder I am violating Federal Rule?

    I CANNOT as a Permit Holder carry in the National Park?

    So when I drove to Az I drove thru a patch of Zion's I was in Violation of the Rule that just a few days ago was in OUR "favor"?

    So we are back to where we were. Nothing different?



    TJ

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    it sure appears that way.

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    http://www.newwest.net/topic/article..._rule/C41/L41/

    Crapo Introduces Bill to Codify National Park Gun Rule

    Gun politics is getting very interesting. Will Congress record a vote on guns in national parks? Will the President sign it?

    By Bill Schneider, 4-04-09



    A lot of people might wonder why and how the national parks became a Second Amendment battleground, but nobody really thinks the war will end anytime soon. Now, Congress has decided to make sure the fight goes on.

    On January 9, a Bush administration rule to allow loaded and concealed firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges went into effect, but the Brady Campaign and National Parks and Conservation Association sued to overturn it, successfully. On March 19, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly of Washington, D.C. granted the plaintiffs an injunction to prevent the Department of the Interior from implementing the rule. One day later, the National Rifle Association (NRA) appealed, but the judge has not ruled on the appeal.

    Now, on April 2, Senator Mike Crapo (R-ID) introduced a bill (S.816) to codify the Bush administration rule to, according to a NRA alert, “restore the Second Amendment rights of visitors in national parks and wildlife refuges.”

    Crapo’s bill is identical to H.R. 1684 introduced on March 24 in the U.S. House of Representatives by Congressman Doc Hastings (R-WA).

    At least in the Senate, the national park gun rule is breaking down party lines. Crapo has four co-sponsors for his bill, including Montana’s Democratic senators Max Baucus and Jon Tester and Arkansas Democrat Blanche Lincoln, along with Utah Republican Bob Bennett. Hasting has 14 co-sponsors for his bill, all Republican.

    Politically, this could get very interesting. The NRA has decided to make the national park rule a priority, and the Brady Campaign has decided to make stopping it a priority.

    With Attorney General Eric Holder trying to get Congress to approve a so-called assault weapons ban and President Obama full of stingers from gun owners who claim he plans to renege on his campaign promises, what happens if Congress sends the national park gun rule bill to the White House? Will the President sign it?

    Also, this bill will do exactly what many members of Congress, especially Democrats, are in a panic to avoid, making a recordable vote on a gun issue that’s sure to be a headliner in their next campaign.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    And the interior dept is on the record as NOT appealing the injuction.

    Why am I not suprised!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/04...led-10642.html
    House and Senate bills would codify a Bush-era rule to allow visitors to carry concealed firearms into national parks and wildlife refuges in states with concealed carry laws. A federal judge blocked the rule last month, siding with anti-gun and conservation groups that argued Interior failed to conduct an environmental assessment as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.

    "This is not an environmental issue, this is a civil rights issue," said Rep. Rob Bishop (R-Utah), one of the co-sponsors of the House bill, H.R. 1684. "The Constitution trumps NEPA. Period."
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/04...led-10642.html
    House and Senate bills would codify a Bush-era rule to allow visitors to carry concealed firearms into national parks and wildlife refuges in states with concealed carry laws. A federal judge blocked the rule last month, siding with anti-gun and conservation groups that argued Interior failed to conduct an environmental assessment as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.

    "This is not an environmental issue, this is a civil rights issue," said Rep. Rob Bishop (R-Utah), one of the co-sponsors of the House bill, H.R. 1684. "The Constitution trumps NEPA. Period."
    Since DOI has asked the the judge and she has aggreed to delay a final ruling until the Environmental assessment is complete, could the DOI just FAIL TO SCHEDULE OR NEVER DO THE ASSESSMENT and thereby have this legal entanglement just grow dust and NEVER RETURN TO US OUR RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    I thought I would give an update on this one.. Here is some good news.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2257136/posts

    .......
    "The credit-card bill was passed with an amendment that will allow people to carry loaded concealed weapons into national parks and wildlife refuges. Mr. Obama didn't mention the provision when trumpeting the merits of the new credit-card restrictions." .....
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    I thought I would give an update on this one.. Here is some good news.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2257136/posts

    .......
    "The credit-card bill was passed with an amendment that will allow people to carry loaded concealed weapons into national parks and wildlife refuges. Mr. Obama didn't mention the provision when trumpeting the merits of the new credit-card restrictions." .....
    I have failed to understand what date this is going into effect. Is from the day that it was signed ? If so......AWESOME!!!:celebrate

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    The Credit card reform bill stipulates that the bill and ALL amendments which do not state otherwise will be effective in Feb 2010.

    The Firearm amendment DID NOT specify a different effective date so.....

    We will have to wait until Late February 2010 to be able to LEGALLY exercise OUR 2nd amendment protected rights in National Parks or other areas managed by the NPS/DOI.

    The delay frustrates me tooooooo!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    The Credit card reform bill stipulates that the bill and ALL amendments which do not state otherwise will be effective in Feb 2010.

    The Firearm amendment DID NOT specify a different effective date so.....

    We will have to wait until Late February 2010 to be able to LEGALLY exercise OUR 2nd amendment protected rights in National Parks or other areas managed by the NPS/DOI.

    The delay frustrates me tooooooo!
    Can you direct me where you got the Date-info from so that I can read about it?

    Please?

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    The Credit card reform bill stipulates that the bill and ALL amendments which do not state otherwise will be effective in Feb 2010.

    The Firearm amendment DID NOT specify a different effective date so.....

    We will have to wait until Late February 2010 to be able to LEGALLY exercise OUR 2nd amendment protected rights in National Parks or other areas managed by the NPS/DOI.

    The delay frustrates me tooooooo!
    Can you direct me where you got the Date-info from so that I can read about it?

    Please?
    First paragraph:

    http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=4901

    text here:
    Bi-Partisan Congressional Majority Moves
    to Restore Second Amendment in National Parks Friday, May 22, 2009
    -- On Wednesday, NRA-backed legislation to restore the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in national parks and wildlife refuges passed in the U.S. House of Representatives by an overwhelming bipartisan majority of 279-147. Today, the measure was signed into law and, as specified in the legislation, will take effect in nine months, on February 22, 2010. This was a major repudiation of the gun control community's anti self-defense agenda.
    The current Department of Interior (DOI) regulations were amended by the Bush Administration in 2008, allowing law-abiding citizens to defend themselves by carrying a concealed firearm in national parks and wildlife refuges. However, early this year, a federal district court in Washington, D.C. granted anti-gun plaintiffs a preliminary injunction against implementation of the new rule. NRA has been working for the past several years in the regulatory, legal, and legislative arenas to achieve this policy change.
    "It has been an NRA priority to change the old, outdated rule, and we are pleased that Congress passed this critical legislation," said NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox. "This step brings clarity and uniformity for law-abiding gun owners visiting our national parks and wildlife refuges. NRA will continue to pursue every avenue to defend the American people's right of self-defense."
    The National Park Service's recent report revealed that 11 murders, 35 rapes, 61 robberies and 261 aggravated assaults occurred on parklands in 2006. Our parks also contain hidden methamphetamine labs, marijuana fields and illegal drug and illegal alien smuggling routes. In addition to these dangers and potential attacks from human predators, park visitors have to consider attacks from animal predators. Between April and December 2007 there were at least a dozen grizzly bear attacks reported by park visitors. Today, 31 states allow the carrying of firearms in state parks--all with safe and satisfactory results.
    This bill provides consistency across our nation's federal lands and puts an end to the patchwork of regulations that govern different lands managed by different federal agencies. In the past, only Bureau of Land Management and Forest Service lands allowed the carrying of firearms, while National Parks and Wildlife Refuges did not.
    In 1982, only six states allowed citizens to carry handguns for self-defense. Currently, 48 states have some process in place for issuing licenses or permits to allow law-abiding citizens to carry firearms for self-defense. The NRA has long held that the regulations needed to be updated to reflect this change.
    This move restores the rights of law-abiding gun owners who wish to transport and carry firearms for lawful purposes on most DOI lands and makes federal law consistent with the state law in which these lands are located.
    "This common-sense measure, offered by Senator Tom Coburn (R-Okla.), gives law-abiding gun owners the option of protecting themselves in our federal parks and refuges. We appreciate the efforts and leadership of Senators Mike Crapo (R-Idaho) and Max Baucus (D-Mont.), and Representatives Doc Hastings (R-Wash.) and Rob Bishop (R-Utah), in ensuring a legislative remedy to amend out-of-date regulations and restore the Second Amendment rights of American gun owners," concluded Cox.

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    The Credit card reform bill stipulates that the bill and ALL amendments which do not state otherwise will be effective in Feb 2010.

    The Firearm amendment DID NOT specify a different effective date so.....

    We will have to wait until Late February 2010 to be able to LEGALLY exercise OUR 2nd amendment protected rights in National Parks or other areas managed by the NPS/DOI.

    The delay frustrates me tooooooo!
    Can you direct me where you got the Date-info from so that I can read about it?

    Please?
    It is a line in the bill itself.... I will try to locate it for you. It was pointed out to me in another thread on this forum by someone else....

    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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