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Thread: Newbie question about OC without a CPL

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    Hello Everybody,second post, originally posted in the wrong thread.

    My name is Nate, I am originally from Midland, but my Wife currently lives in Ypsilanti While I am deployed with the National Guard. I should be returning in June.

    My wife got her CPL yesterday, so obviously she can OC or CC regardless

    My problem is, I have to wait about 2 years due to a DUI before I can get mine

    Yes, I was a dumbass, not looking for sympathy, it is what it is, I'm just glad I learned my lesson.

    Anyway, I have been wanting to find out more about OC without a CPL, I understand that it IS legal, but that while in my car, it has to be in a locked case. No big deal, since the wife will be packing anyway. I am wondering whether anybody here has done much OC in the Midland or Ypsilanti areas, and what their experiences were. I am also looking for clarification on whether OC on a motorcycle requires a CPL. The law states IN a motor vehicle, not ON. Also, if I am stopped by security, or by a Police Offiecer while OCing on foot, since I do not have a CPL, is there anything I should be expecting from them? Or a pamphlet that shows that OC IS legal, CPL or not?

    I emailed the MSP about a week or two ago, but have not recieved a response. So if any of you could help, I would appreciate it.

    Normally, I use a drop leg holster for my FNP45. I OC'd a little while I was home on mid tourleave in November, at an aquaintances apt complex, Detroit Arms, and Hunts with Double Indoor Range, near Detroit. No bad experiences, a couple of funny looks at the Apt complex, but that was it.



    Thanks


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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Welcome Nate. Be sure to read "Open Carry Info Here" and "Wash, Rinse, Repeat" at the top of the Michigan forum page. Read them extensively, and then read them some more. Most of your questions will be answered in those two threads. Good luck and carry on!
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, handguns magically disappear when you sit on a motorcycle, so you need a CPL to carry loaded on one.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    midland has been a good experience for OC (i have cpl).

    there are several of us that OC in Midland all the time.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Oh yeah, handguns magically disappear when you sit on a motorcycle, so you need a CPL to carry loaded on one.
    what about in a drop leg holster?

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    natethreet wrote:
    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Oh yeah, handguns magically disappear when you sit on a motorcycle, so you need a CPL to carry loaded on one.
    what about in a drop leg holster?
    No, according to the law, they disappear, as if there are doors and fenders around it. No matter how exposed it is on a bike, the law says it's concealed. Hence the sarcasm. There are lots of little crocks of horse puckey like this one. You'll learn to despise written law.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    natethreet wrote:
    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Oh yeah, handguns magically disappear when you sit on a motorcycle, so you need a CPL to carry loaded on one.
    what about in a drop leg holster?
    No, according to the law, they disappear, as if there are doors and fenders around it. No matter how exposed it is on a bike, the law says it's concealed. Hence the sarcasm. There are lots of little crocks of horse puckey like this one. You'll learn to despise written law.
    ***I am not a lawyer, the following is my layman's opinion, thoroughly read all relevant laws or check with an attorney if you want to be 100% sure.***

    I think, according to his original post, Nate is asking the separate question about a drop-leg holster being generally legal.

    Yes, Nate, a drop-leg holster is considered ok, as long as the holster itself would be considered lawful if on your hip. The *position*, in this case, isn't important, but some holsters may be considered to be concealing the firearm too much.

    Is there anyone who can speak more to the issue (if it is an issue) of some holsters being considered by the law as "too" concealing?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

    This is one example. Do some digging on your own to determine for yourself, but the TYPE of holster does not seem to be an issue.


    The following is a reference to case law, as referred to in John R. Dethmers AG opinion #3158:
    "The statute does not mean or import that no part of the weapons
    should be concealed, but the offense is only committed when the
    weapon is so concealed that it is impossible for one approaching in
    view of the person carrying the weapon to see any part of it. All
    that the Legislature meant when it prohibited the carrying of
    concealed weapons was to compel persons to so wear them that others
    who might come in contact with them might see that they were armed
    and dangerous persons, who were to be avoided in consequence, for,
    if it should be required that no part of the weapon should be
    concealed, the statute would amount to an infringement of the constitutional right of citizens to have and bear arms, since it
    would be impossible for one to have and bear about his person a
    pistol or weapon of any kind without having some part of it
    concealed. (Stockdale v. State, 32 Ga. 225, 227).

    Be warned, however, that some LEO's, and some overzealous prosecutors don't much care about the above items, and wish to pursue persons who carry "openly" with an inside the waistband holster. These holsters are normally used for the practice of concealed carry, and the opinion of the aforementioned people is that they should be exclusively used as such, and that the use of such a holster makes carrying in one concealed by default. I believe this to be flawed thinking, but the risk is there. I would not try it. As far as a drop leg holster being legal, there is no statute that prohibits the use of one (that I am aware of). There are folks here who carry in flap holsters which entirely conceal a pistol, but as the above opinion is written, this is a legal practice. Nevermind that a flap holster worn outside the belt conceals the handgun further than an IWB holster inside the belt. It is still a holster, and would seem to be legal as written above. It may be another one of those situations that could attract the attention of an overzealous LEO or prosecutor. If you choose to carry in an IWB or flap holster, be aware that you may be attracting more unwanted attention than you bargained for. Lots of pitfalls here. Know what you're getting into.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html


    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    natethreet wrote:
    SNIP
    Anyway, I have been wanting to find out more about OC without a CPL, I understand that it IS legal, but that while in my car, it has to be in a locked case. No big deal, since the wife will be packing anyway. I am wondering whether anybody here has done much OC in the Midland or Ypsilanti areas, and what their experiences were. I am also looking for clarification on whether OC on a motorcycle requires a CPL. The law states IN a motor vehicle, not ON. Also, if I am stopped by security, or by a Police Offiecer while OCing on foot, since I do not have a CPL, is there anything I should be expecting from them? Or a pamphlet that shows that OC IS legal, CPL or not?

    SNIP
    Nate, let your wife (has CPL) carry your pistol for you so you don't have to unload and lock in trunk each time you want to carry. Keep the pistol (if loaded)in a holster (paddle type)and she can carry it in her purse, pants pocket, etc, until you are out of the car.

    ETA: With you not having a CPL do not use a IWB type holster for OC.

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    Nate,

    Thank you for your service.

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    thank you for the info, guys. I didn't know that I could just have my wife hold onto it in the car for me, thank you.



    And thank you for your support

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    thank you for the info, guys. I didn't know that I could just have my wife hold onto it in the car for me, thank you.



    And thank you for your support

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    natethreet wrote:
    thank you for the info, guys. I didn't know that I could just have my wife hold onto it in the car for me, thank you.



    And thank you for your support
    There is no law in Michigan that limits the number of pistols a person with a CPL can conceal and there is no law limiting the number of pistols a person can open carry. Of course, there are restrictions pertaining to both modes of carry.

    As previously mentioned, if the pistol is loaded make sure it remains in a holster during the transition between you and your wife.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Interesting point about the holster. I asked once if a "fanny pack" holster would be considered OC. The opinions I got were all "no", since you could put other things in there. My argument would be that I could put other things in just about any holster, especially a "flap" holster. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a holster as a " case exclusively designed to hold a handgun" and since my fanny pack was originally designed to hold my pistol, I think it would probably meet that definition. I know this is a purely academic question as I guess the aforementioned opinion that it would be considered CC would probably be upheld as "correct" as most people seeing a "fanny pack" would not assume "gun", but I could also argue that some flap holsters would also not indicate to the average person on the street that the person is carrying.

    Please do not take what I say here as fanny-pack advocacy, as I would hate to see a non-cpl holder get charged for cc while using a fanny-pack. I really am just wondering if anyone has anything official from any legitimate LE agency.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    Interesting point about the holster. I asked once if a "fanny pack" holster would be considered OC. The opinions I got were all "no", since you could put other things in there. My argument would be that I could put other things in just about any holster, especially a "flap" holster. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a holster as a " case exclusively designed to hold a handgun" and since my fanny pack was originally designed to hold my pistol, I think it would probably meet that definition. I know this is a purely academic question as I guess the aforementioned opinion that it would be considered CC would probably be upheld as "correct" as most people seeing a "fanny pack" would not assume "gun", but I could also argue that some flap holsters would also not indicate to the average person on the street that the person is carrying.

    Please do not take what I say here as fanny-pack advocacy, as I would hate to see a non-cpl holder get charged for cc while using a fanny-pack. I really am just wondering if anyone has anything official from any legitimate LE agency.
    Interesting. My opinion is that any reasonable person would not assume a fanny pack was a "holster", but would assume the military style covered holster is a holster. This of course would have to be decided by a trial and case law, and I would not recommend any non-CPL holder to try it, as Dr. Todd stated.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Very interesting indeed. I thought I was being reasonable with my assumption that most of the "fanny packs" that I have encountered since 2002 contained a loud form of bad-guy repellent. Guess that's what I get for assuming. I must reassess my reasonableness. I recognize that a fanny pack is not a holster but may be used as one. So that must mean that I an unreasonable:shock:.springerdave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    Very interesting indeed. I thought I was being reasonable with my assumption that most of the "fanny packs" that I have encountered since 2002 contained a loud form of bad-guy repellent. Guess that's what I get for assuming. I must reassess my reasonableness. I recognize that a fanny pack is not a holster but may be used as one. So that must mean that I an unreasonable:shock:.springerdave.
    I believe you to be more aware and experienced in regard to firearm laws so you would not fall under the reasonable everyday person in regards to this topic. Somewhat like LEO's because of there training in observation they wouldn't be considered an average joe in this regard. I stand by the argument that MOST people would look at a fanny pack as anything but a holster.

    As for you being reasonable I'll leave that up to those closest to you.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    If you are OCing without a CPL, then you must put the handgun in the trunk, this I know. I was wondering what the exact steps are because the Blackhawk Serpa holster I have for my G23 is a PAIN to get off my pants without acctually unbuttoning my pants because the little plastic hooks cath the fabric. So can you just remove the gun from the holster and put it in a safe in your trunk? But if someone see's that, wouldn't that be considered brandishing since it is out of the holster? I was wondering what you guys do, or did when you were OCing without/before a CPL.

    Thanks

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    T Vance wrote:
    If you are OCing without a CPL, then you must put the handgun in the trunk, this I know.
    The complete answer is you must unload the handgun, put it in a suitable case (the ammo can be in the case with the handgun, if you want), and the case stored in the trunk, or least accessible part of the vehicle if there is no trunk.

    I was wondering what the exact steps are because the Blackhawk Serpa holster I have for my G23 is a PAIN to get off my pants without acctually unbuttoning my pants because the little plastic hooks cath the fabric. So can you just remove the gun from the holster and put it in a safe in your trunk?
    Yes, you may unholster the gun to prepare it for lawful transport and keep the holster on your hip. No, a "safe" is not required for lawful transport of the gun, only a suitable case, per the language of the law. The law does not mandate a "safe" or that the "case" has a locking mechanism.
    But if someone see's that, wouldn't that be considered brandishing since it is out of the holster?
    No. Per AG opinion No. 7101, brandishing is "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish."

    Basically, if you do not point the weapon at someone or wave or flourish it in a menacing way, you are not brandishing. In practice, I stand at my open trunk, unholster and keep the weapon pointedat the ground, unload it keeping it pointed at the ground, place it in the case, put the ammo in the case with the unloaded gun, close the case, then close my trunk.

    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    natethreet wrote:
    thank you for the info, guys. I didn't know that I could just have my wife hold onto it in the car for me, thank you.



    And thank you for your support

    There is no law in Michigan that limits the number of pistols a person with a CPL can conceal and there is no law limiting the number of pistols a person can open carry. Of course, there are restrictions pertaining to both modes of carry.

    As previously mentioned, if the pistol is loaded make sure it remains in a holster during the transition between you and your wife.


    What do you base this on? I know of no law that says a loaded pistol can't be handed to another person . In plublic or private.

    Now safety is another concern....While I *KNOW* it can be done, I teach that a firearm should be unloaded and the action open when trsansfering from one person to another.


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    Leader wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    natethreet wrote:
    thank you for the info, guys. I didn't know that I could just have my wife hold onto it in the car for me, thank you.



    And thank you for your support

    There is no law in Michigan that limits the number of pistols a person with a CPL can conceal and there is no law limiting the number of pistols a person can open carry. Of course, there are restrictions pertaining to both modes of carry.

    As previously mentioned, if the pistol is loaded make sure it remains in a holster during the transition between you and your wife.


    What do you base this on? I know of no law that says a loaded pistol can't be handed to another person . In plublic or private.

    Now safety is another concern....While I *KNOW* it can be done, I teach that a firearm should be unloaded and the action open when trsansfering from one person to another.

    That is exactly why I saidto keep it in the holster. It makes the transition from no carry to lawful carry for Nate in a safe, less hassle manner--I made no mention of it being law.

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