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Thread: Hogle Zoo - Forced to leave or conceal

  1. #1
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    Hogle Zoo claims it's private property - Uses Salt Lake PD to force me to leave or conceal.

    I went to the zoo yesterday with my family and as usual was open carrying. I was approached twice, once by zoo security and once by 3 Salt Lake City Police Officers and one zoo manager.

    Here's what happened.

    Zoo Security (Brett): How's it going man
    me: how are you
    Brett:uh people get nervous when they see a gun in the zoo
    me: ok
    Brett:can I see some Identification or reason you are carrying a gun in the zoo
    Me: it's legal here. The state of Utah you don't need to have ID
    Brettk so you're not with a ... a police department or
    Me: No sir
    Brett: you're just walking around with a gun on you?
    me:Yep just an armed citizen
    Brett:It makes people nervous at the zoo you know with the animals, so we had a report and I thought I'd come talk to you
    Me:Yeah, cool, I appreciate you talking to me
    Brett:You don't want to put it away to where people can't see it?
    Me:I can't hide it with these clothes, it's on an outside waistband holster and won't hide. If I lift my arms it pops right out. But I usually carry it open anyway - (I got pretty flustered here and wasn't sure what to say)
    Brett:alrighty
    me:I appreciate you checking up on me though
    Brettk (starts leaving)
    me:what was your name?
    Brett:Brett
    me: Brett? - Jared - thanks


    Salt Lake City Police Officer Carling:How's your day at the zoo today?
    Me:Good how are you?
    Carling:Is your family inside?
    me: uh yeah
    Carling:Ok - We're here because I'm sure your aware with the issue of security and your open carry. And they have concern because it's brought up some alarm with other visitors here at the zoo.
    me: ok
    Carling:few options here, they would like it I guess to give you the option of concealing it, or at least pulling your shirt over it so it's not visible or taking it to your car or just leaving
    Me: ok um isn't the zoo owned by the city?
    Carling:It's private
    Me: It is private?
    2nd officer -Hunter (sgt):No
    Carling:it's private that's recieving funds they just get grants but it's owned by the
    Hunter: (Cuts in) It's a grey area .... that's why we're not requiring it, but we're trying to meet you half way we just request that you just cover it up.
    Me: ok, so .. and if I don't?
    Carling:well do you have a concealed carry permit?
    Me: I do
    Carling:you do, ok.
    Me: So I'm trying to find out what the... if I don't then what happens?
    Carling and Hunter: ...Nothing (laughing)
    Me: Nothing, (laughing) ok
    Hunter:But we are trying...
    Me: I appreciate your concern, I do appreciate the concern
    Hunter:look around, you have to understand the concern of everyone around you. I think you do have a right, and I appreciate the right...
    Carling:I carry when I'm off duty
    Me: It's protection, there's a deterrent factor, we all have that right.
    Hunter:I understand we all have that right
    Me: I think if the Zoo want's me to leave then they can ask me to leave. If not, I'd just like to go about my business.
    Hunter:you could just take your shirt and cover it up.
    Me: I could (sarcasm)
    Hunter:isn't that a good compromise?
    Me: If there is a legal requirement, then I believe it would be agood [compromise].
    Carling:I guess the issue has been made and ... it's a grey area and we have options on both sides.
    Me: what does that mean?
    Carling: you have options where you can stay and enjoy but make that little exception because it is a private facility. but at the same time so it is kind of a quasi private public facility.
    Hunter: they're here to ask you to leave (zoo manager? arrives)
    Carling: or if those ... aren't met you have to leave.
    Me:They've asked me to leave?
    Carling: (uninteligible) yes
    Me: ok that's what I asked you if I don't what are my options
    Carling:I'm giving you those options
    Me: so they are asking me to leave - the Zoo is asking me to leave or cover up?
    Carling: right
    Me:Great (I cover the gun with my shirt)
    Carling: (to zoo manager) are you satisfied with that?
    Zoo Manager Gunner:Yeah

    Officer Carling- Jennifer Carling Police Officer
    Officer Hunter?-(sgt)
    Officer Benzon- Jared S Benzon Police Officer
    Gunner (zoo manager)-


    So I talked to Clark yesterday and he called to zoo to find out why they are saying they aren't owned by the City. They are going to get back with him on Monday.

    So just a heads up if you plan on OC'ing at the zoo, they are not ok with it. Once we are sure it's definitely owned by the city, I'll be going back and anyone who wants to is welcome to come. We have to make sure they know that they can't bully people around and claim they don't fall under preemption.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Salt Lake County owns them.

    Btw, interesting history:

    1946

    In November, “Blizzard,” the Zoo’s 8-yr-old polar bear, is shot. The culprit is never caught. The Zoo’s superintendent announces that hereafter, guns found on Zoo visitors will be confiscated and punitive measures will be taken against people who throw sticks or stones at the animals. (The bullet wound, between the bear’s eye and ear, is not fatal and the bear lives another five or six years.)

  3. #3
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    Gray Peterson wrote:
    Salt Lake County owns them.
    When did the county buy them from the city? Do you have anything to show that?

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    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    This is good stuff. I'll be anxiously awaiting the facts on this one. I plan on taking my kids to the zoo when the weather warms up, and I will be OC if preemption covers this case and they are, indeed, owned by a state entity. Thanks Jared.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

  5. #5
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    Double Tap.
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

  6. #6
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    jaredbelch wrote:
    Gray Peterson wrote:
    Salt Lake County owns them.
    When did the county buy them from the city? Do you have anything to show that?
    From the Hogle Zoo's website. https://www.hoglezoo.org/about/zoo_history/


    1982
    Salt Lake County, rather than the City, agrees to help fund the operating expenses of the Zoo. The Utah Zoological Society recommits to providing revenues for management and capital improvements.
    1983 - 1985
    The last old cage-type exhibits, constructed in the 1930's, are demolished. The Zoo completes new exhibits for endangered snow leopards, primates, and great apes.
    The Utah State Legislature recognizes the Zoo as a state revenue-enhancing attraction and commits an annual grant to the Zoo’s operating expenses. The Zoo becomes Utah’s Hogle Zoo.
    2004
    Salt Lake County residents face reauthorization of the Zoo, Arts, and Parks (ZAP) tax. Hogle Zoo, along with the ZAP reauthorization committee, hosts ZAP Appreciation Day at the zoo. The day is highlighted with performances, demonstrations, exhibits, and arts from various ZAP recipients. ZAP is overwhelmingly approved, receiving 71 percent of the vote.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  7. #7
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Also, according to the Salt lake Count Assessor, they are owned by Salt Lake City Corp, is public land, and 100% tax exempt.

    http://www.assessor.slco.org/cfml/Qu...;link_id=70938
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #8
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Also, according to the Salt lake Count Assessor, they are owned by Salt Lake City Corp, is public land, and 100% tax exempt.

    http://www.assessor.slco.org/cfml/Qu...;link_id=70938
    Yeah I looked that up too and came to the same conclusion. Interestingly, the zoo is split into two parcels, both currently owned by SLC. The second parcel is 16102760010000.

    In case you can't see the data on the link above, go to http://www.assessor.slco.org/cfml/query/query2.cfm and enter the parcel number you want to search for and hit submit.

    Here is a partial record of each parcel.

    Parcel Record 16102760010000
    Owner SALT LAKE CITY CORP. (TITLE BY Q.C.D.)
    Address 2400 E 1100 S
    Total Acreage 32.02
    Eco. Unit Acres
    Owner Occupied
    Site Name
    Building Permit
    Tax Class Id 501 - SLC-CORP
    Property Type 953 - GOV-BLD/LND
    Tax District 13
    Tax District Location SLCity/SL
    % Exempt 100
    Exempt Type Total
    B of E
    Residential Exemption
    Detail Year 4
    New Growth Year
    New Growth Pct
    New Growth Amount
    Update Year 2007
    Reinspection
    Total Asscociated
    MLS Number
    TaxClass
    1 OE- Owner Exemp


    Parcel Record 16111510040000
    Owner SALT LAKE CITY CORP
    Address 2800 E 925 S
    Total Acreage 14.04
    Eco. Unit Acres
    Owner Occupied
    Site Name
    Building Permit
    Tax Class Id 501 - SLC-CORP
    Property Type 951 - PUBLIC
    Tax District 13
    Tax District Location SLCity/SL
    % Exempt 100
    Exempt Type Total
    B of E
    Residential Exemption
    Detail Year
    New Growth Year 08
    New Growth Pct 100
    New Growth Amount
    Update Year 2007
    Reinspection
    Total Asscociated
    MLS Number
    TaxClass
    1 OE- Owner Exempt

  9. #9
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    Hmm I just looked a little closer, and the last update date for both parcels is 2007. So it's possible ownership has changed since then and it hasn't been updated.

  10. #10
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    Per the county assessor website, their ownership shows to "salt lake city corp" which means its owned by the city. Goverment, and public.

    http://www.assessor.slco.org/cfml/Qu...;link_id=70391


    http://www.assessor.slco.org/pubMore/detail.cfm (this one apparently doesnt work, go to the "detail" button on the above link and it will give you this info.)


    Oh damnit, SGT beat me to it, guess thats what I get for not reading all the threads.....

  11. #11
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    thoughtpolice wrote:
    Oh damnit, SGT beat me to it, guess thats what I get for not reading all the threads.
    I'm surprised you went to look for the answer, instead of attacking Jared for trying to stand his ground.

    This is a big step forward for you. You've made me proud! <--- (Tears of Joy!)
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    I'm surprised you went to look for the answer, instead of attacking Jared for trying to stand his ground.

    This is a big step forward for you. You've made me proud! <--- (Tears of Joy!)
    Hey, retard!!! Just because I think OCing is stupid alot of the time, it doesnt mean its ILLEGAL. IF the situation is as it was reported, I believe he has a right to make a complaint. I believe thecops werejust trying to appeasethe owner and the OCer. Sounded like a good compromise, cover up and we are all happy. BUT, if it is state owned, he shouldnt HAVE to. I agree. The cops should have said they would appreciate it if he did, but he was within his rights if he didnt. Sounds like the Zoo owner has a bug up his ass. Thats where the issue lies. Not with PD. So bite me. I still think youre retarded



    EDIT, this is different from Walmart or One Man Diner or any other PRIVATELY owned facility, where I think if you are asked to cover up, you dont own the property so do it or GTFO. If this were the case, I would say quit @#$%in' bitchin' and get over it. Get it SGT?:shock:

  13. #13
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    thoughtpolice wrote:
    Hey, retard!!! ... So bite me. I still think youre retarded
    OK, now I am officially sad. <--- (SGT Jensen is crying like a little bitch.)


    this is different from Walmart or One Man Band or any other PRIVATELY owned facility, where I think if you are asked to cover up, you dont own the property so do it or GTFO. If this were the case, I would say quit @#$%in' bitchin' and get over it. Get it SGT?:shock:
    Couldn't agree more. See the Wal-Mart thread. Like I said there, I may not agree with a no OC policy, but private entities can do WTF they want. I won't lose sleep over it.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    thoughtpolice wrote:
    Hey, retard!!! ... So bite me. I still think youre retarded
    OK, now I am officially sad. <--- (SGT Jensen is crying like a little bitch.)


    this is different from Walmart or One Man Band or any other PRIVATELY owned facility, where I think if you are asked to cover up, you dont own the property so do it or GTFO. If this were the case, I would say quit @#$%in' bitchin' and get over it. Get it SGT?:shock:
    Couldn't agree more. See the Wal-Mart thread. Like I said there, I may not agree with a no OC policy, but private entities can do WTF they want. I won't lose sleep over it.
    So....I guess we are on the same page??? ... what the hell am I supposed to do now? If I cant argue or make fun of you...... Im bored

  15. #15
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    thoughtpolice wrote:
    So....I guess we are on the same page??? ... what the hell am I supposed to do now? If I cant argue or make fun of you...... Im bored
    Tell you what. Once I am home, if I am asked to leave a private entity due to open carry, I will kick and scream like a little bitch with a skinned knee. Deal?
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Tell you what. Once I am home, if I am asked to leave a private entity due to open carry, I will kick and scream like a little bitch with a skinned knee. Deal?
    Id hate to upset the status quo around here, thank you!:?

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Hogle Zoo is NOT private property. It is owned by the Salt Lake City, but funded by the County.

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    Jared,

    Did you call Mitch Vilos on this. He AND Shurtleff will have a Hayday with this one



    TJ



    jaredbelch wrote:
    Hogle Zoo claims it's private property - Uses Salt Lake PD to force me to leave or conceal.

    I went to the zoo yesterday with my family and as usual was open carrying. I was approached twice, once by zoo security and once by 3 Salt Lake City Police Officers and one zoo manager.

    Here's what happened.

    Zoo Security (Brett): How's it going man
    me: how are you
    Brett:uh people get nervous when they see a gun in the zoo
    me: ok
    Brett:can I see some Identification or reason you are carrying a gun in the zoo
    Me: it's legal here. The state of Utah you don't need to have ID
    Brettk so you're not with a ... a police department or
    Me: No sir
    Brett: you're just walking around with a gun on you?
    me:Yep just an armed citizen
    Brett:It makes people nervous at the zoo you know with the animals, so we had a report and I thought I'd come talk to you
    Me:Yeah, cool, I appreciate you talking to me
    Brett:You don't want to put it away to where people can't see it?
    Me:I can't hide it with these clothes, it's on an outside waistband holster and won't hide. If I lift my arms it pops right out. But I usually carry it open anyway - (I got pretty flustered here and wasn't sure what to say)
    Brett:alrighty
    me:I appreciate you checking up on me though
    Brettk (starts leaving)
    me:what was your name?
    Brett:Brett
    me: Brett? - Jared - thanks


    Salt Lake City Police Officer Carling:How's your day at the zoo today?
    Me:Good how are you?
    Carling:Is your family inside?
    me: uh yeah
    Carling:Ok - We're here because I'm sure your aware with the issue of security and your open carry. And they have concern because it's brought up some alarm with other visitors here at the zoo.
    me: ok
    Carling:few options here, they would like it I guess to give you the option of concealing it, or at least pulling your shirt over it so it's not visible or taking it to your car or just leaving
    Me: ok um isn't the zoo owned by the city?
    Carling:It's private
    Me: It is private?
    2nd officer -Hunter (sgt):No
    Carling:it's private that's recieving funds they just get grants but it's owned by the
    Hunter: (Cuts in) It's a grey area .... that's why we're not requiring it, but we're trying to meet you half way we just request that you just cover it up.
    Me: ok, so .. and if I don't?
    Carling:well do you have a concealed carry permit?
    Me: I do
    Carling:you do, ok.
    Me: So I'm trying to find out what the... if I don't then what happens?
    Carling and Hunter: ...Nothing (laughing)
    Me: Nothing, (laughing) ok
    Hunter:But we are trying...
    Me: I appreciate your concern, I do appreciate the concern
    Hunter:look around, you have to understand the concern of everyone around you. I think you do have a right, and I appreciate the right...
    Carling:I carry when I'm off duty
    Me: It's protection, there's a deterrent factor, we all have that right.
    Hunter:I understand we all have that right
    Me: I think if the Zoo want's me to leave then they can ask me to leave. If not, I'd just like to go about my business.
    Hunter:you could just take your shirt and cover it up.
    Me: I could (sarcasm)
    Hunter:isn't that a good compromise?
    Me: If there is a legal requirement, then I believe it would be agood [compromise].
    Carling:I guess the issue has been made and ... it's a grey area and we have options on both sides.
    Me: what does that mean?
    Carling: you have options where you can stay and enjoy but make that little exception because it is a private facility. but at the same time so it is kind of a quasi private public facility.
    Hunter: they're here to ask you to leave (zoo manager? arrives)
    Carling: or if those ... aren't met you have to leave.
    Me:They've asked me to leave?
    Carling: (uninteligible) yes
    Me: ok that's what I asked you if I don't what are my options
    Carling:I'm giving you those options
    Me: so they are asking me to leave - the Zoo is asking me to leave or cover up?
    Carling: right
    Me:Great (I cover the gun with my shirt)
    Carling: (to zoo manager) are you satisfied with that?
    Zoo Manager Gunner:Yeah

    Officer Carling- Jennifer Carling Police Officer
    Officer Hunter?-(sgt)
    Officer Benzon- Jared S Benzon Police Officer
    Gunner (zoo manager)-


    So I talked to Clark yesterday and he called to zoo to find out why they are saying they aren't owned by the City. They are going to get back with him on Monday.

    So just a heads up if you plan on OC'ing at the zoo, they are not ok with it. Once we are sure it's definitely owned by the city, I'll be going back and anyone who wants to is welcome to come. We have to make sure they know that they can't bully people around and claim they don't fall under preemption.

  19. #19
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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    Jared,

    Did you call Mitch Vilos on this. He AND Shurtleff will have a Hayday with this one



    TJ


    I emailed Mitch but he hasn't gotten back to me. I also talked to Clark and he's been working on it.

    How have you been! Long time no see.

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    Any update?

  21. #21
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    Next time you go be sure to have Shurtleff and Vilos on speed dial. I would love to see the cops' faces when Shurtleff tells them to leave you alone.

    Let me know when the next visit will be and I will see if I can tag along. I haven't been to the zoo in ages and I would love to get back.

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    ScottyT wrote:
    Let me know when the next visit will be and I will see if I can tag along. I haven't been to the zoo in ages and I would love to get back.
    How about joining us on April 25th?

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/23467.html


  23. #23
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    I have to wait and see about the 25th. My friend's birthday party is that night and I might have to catch a ride down to Provo earlier in the day...

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    ScottyT wrote:
    I have to wait and see about the 25th. My friend's birthday party is that night and I might have to catch a ride down to Provo earlier in the day...
    I'll be driving up to the zoo from Provo so I could most likely give you a ride after the day at the zoo.


  25. #25
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    What time are you guys/gals meeting up and at what entrance? I just might bring my three critters with me if I have them that weekend.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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