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Thread: CCH Charge While OC'ing

  1. #1
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    I was in a Range Safety Officer Class today and a former LEO
    told me that there was a guy in S. Raleigh charged with carrying a
    concealed weapon during a traffic stop. The gun was laying in clear view
    on the passenger seat.

    The officer said that because he did not see it on the passenger seat, it
    was to be considered concealed. What do we do, wear it around our neck?

  2. #2
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    My police department considers it concealed if they can not see it from a full 360* view. That doesn't mean my department will charge somebody though. In most cases after they check out the entire situation, they will warn to keep it somewhere else(most say on the dash).

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    The dash is a stupid place for anything, because as soon as you turn, it will slide where ever inertia tells it to.

    Even on your neck it would only be visible from the front and sides.

    Are we supposed to hang it off the rear view mirror?


    Just the officer is not observant doesn't make the guy a criminal.

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    JDriver1.8t wrote:
    The dash is a stupid place for anything, because as soon as you turn, it will slide where ever inertia tells it to.

    Even on your neck it would only be visible from the front and sides.

    Are we supposed to hang it off the rear view mirror?


    Just the officer is not observant doesn't make the guy a criminal.
    I was simply saying what is done around here. And there is a "pad" made for the dash to keep things in place. Obviously it won't keep you safe from the gun flying at you in the event of an accident though.

    Not being able to see through somebody or a part of the car has nothing to do with being observant.

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    from the first post:
    "The officer said that because he did not see it on the passenger seat, it
    was to be considered concealed."

    The officer was not observant.

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    JDriver1.8t wrote:
    from the first post:
    "The officer said that because he did not see it on the passenger seat, it
    was to be considered concealed."

    The officer was not observant.
    Edit: My local officers would say the same thing now that I think about it. They would say since they can't see it from behind(seat blocking view) it is considered concealed. Again, my local officers wouldn't charge you for it though, just warn you to put it somewhere else.

    You just got to look at it from their point of view. Concealed means can't be seen. Obviously, it can be from certain views(not debating that at all) but it can't be seen from all views. I do think it would be pretty stupid to get charged for it though.

    The only thing to do about it is, try to get a real castle doctrine where you can have it concealed in your car and not just your house or land. Or get a ccw so you don't have to worry about it.

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    partemisio wrote:
    My police department considers it concealed if they can not see it from a full 360* view. That doesn't mean my department will charge somebody though. In most cases after they check out the entire situation, they will warn to keep it somewhere else(most say on the dash).
    I'd love the chance to try my very expensive lawyer on this. I imagine we could make it very expensive for your police department as well as start someone off on a new career path.


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    glock30 wrote:
    partemisio wrote:
    My police department considers it concealed if they can not see it from a full 360* view. That doesn't mean my department will charge somebody though. In most cases after they check out the entire situation, they will warn to keep it somewhere else(most say on the dash).
    I'd love the chance to try my very expensive lawyer on this. I imagine we could make it very expensive for your police department as well as start someone off on a new career path.
    Read the second paragraph in my edited post above as well as the rest of that post where I said "That doesn't mean my department will charge somebody though. In most cases after they check out the entire situation, they will warn to keep it somewhere else(most say on the dash)."

    And if you just want to throw money around(and don't have a ccw), be my guest and come get pulled over like that and get them to charge you for it by doing something stupid while pulled over. I would love to see the outcome. I would imagine they could make you spend your money on that expensive lawyer and some of your "free time" in cuffs.

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    Be hard to consider it concealed if you tell him its there. I'm aware you do not have to. If after you tell him it's there he considers it concealedI would think he has the Clint Eastwood idea of gun control. "If there is a gun in the room I want to control it."

    And according to our AG, if it's openly displayed it's not concealed.

    "While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual's purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer's and the vehicle's occupants' safety."



    http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

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    chiefjason wrote:
    Be hard to consider it concealed if you tell him its there. I'm aware you do not have to. If after you tell him it's there he considers it concealedI would think he has the Clint Eastwood idea of gun control. "If there is a gun in the room I want to control it."

    And according to our AG, if it's openly displayed it's not concealed.

    "While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual's purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer's and the vehicle's occupants' safety."



    http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf
    So, if you have it tucked under a coat and tell an officer it is there you don't think it is concealed anymore?

    What the ag's site says means nothing. There are a lot of opinions up there.

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    partemisio wrote:
    My police department considers it concealed if they can not see it from a full 360* view.
    Possible only atop an external pedestal or with a hat-holster(tm). I trust you expressed their ignorant policy but clumsily.

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    partemisio wrote:
    So, if you have it tucked under a coat and tell an officer it is there you don't think it is concealed anymore?

    What the ag's site says means nothing. There are a lot of opinions up there.
    Actually I find your quote quite telling.

    The state Attorney General in each of the 50 U.S. states and territories is the chief legal advisor to the state government and the state's chief law enforcement officer. In some states, the attorney general serves as the head of a state department of justice, with responsibilities similar to those of the United States Department of Justice. Most attorneys general are elected statewide; however, some are appointed by their state's governor, legislature, or supreme court.

    Let me break out one line for you

    the state's chief law enforcement officer

    So I'd think his opinion would carry a hell of a lot of weight with the police department.



    / Look I'm not ragging on you personally, just debating your department's policies.

    // Yes I do believe I would have the case thrown out and then we'd talk wrongful arrest.



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    So if a cop can't see it from all angles, then it's concealed. Right, so if he closes his eyes, then I guess we're guilty of concealing, huh? And we'd be concealing if we walk behind a building, or allow the curvature of the earth to block their view...oh I do hope they realized the earth IS round...

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    DreQo wrote:
    So if a cop can't see it from all angles, then it's concealed. Right, so if he closes his eyes, then I guess we're guilty of concealing, huh? And we'd be concealing if we walk behind a building, or allow the curvature of the earth to block their view...oh I do hope they realized the earth IS round...
    Those make no sense. To be concealed it has to be in something(car, glove box, shirt). When outside of a shirt and you are walking, it is not concealed. The rule changes once you take a seat in a car. And we are talking about a car in this case. Like I (and some of you) have said before, when in a car it is up to the officer of whether it is considered concealed or not.

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    glock30 wrote:
    partemisio wrote:
    So, if you have it tucked under a coat and tell an officer it is there you don't think it is concealed anymore?

    What the ag's site says means nothing. There are a lot of opinions up there.
    Actually I find your quote quite telling.

    The state Attorney General in each of the 50 U.S. states and territories is the chief legal advisor to the state government and the state's chief law enforcement officer. In some states, the attorney general serves as the head of a state department of justice, with responsibilities similar to those of the United States Department of Justice. Most attorneys general are elected statewide; however, some are appointed by their state's governor, legislature, or supreme court.

    Let me break out one line for you

    the state's chief law enforcement officer

    So I'd think his opinion would carry a hell of a lot of weight with the police department.



    / Look I'm not ragging on you personally, just debating your department's policies.

    // Yes I do believe I would have the case thrown out and then we'd talk wrongful arrest.

    I understand what you are saying. But what he thinks means nothing if there is something in the law that contradicts his thoughts(not saying there is in this case).

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    partemisio wrote:
    So, if you have it tucked under a coat and tell an officer it is there you don't think it is concealed anymore?

    What the ag's site says means nothing. There are a lot of opinions up there.


    Please don't put words in my mouth. We are talking about an openly carried gun on a passenger seat of a car, period. Connect the dots here. If it's openly carried on the passenger seat, the AG says that openly carried in an automobile is not concealed, and you tell the officer itis there, then where is the issue?



    BTW that paper is titled "North Carolina Firearms Laws" I would think it would carry some weight. Maybe not in your PD but I think it would in the courthouse.

    While this is not the law of the land the AG is setting a standard protocol for open carrying in a vehicle. It is not concealed and you are asked to inform the officer.

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    Recently had to stop for a NCHP DL check in Stantonsburg, NC this past week (3.21.09) with my SW9GVE in open sight on my passanger seat.

    When the trooper approached my window the first thing out of my mouth was "I have a weapon in my vehicle."

    I have a console between the driver and passenger seat, but I can clearly see the weapon on the seat and obvisously he could see it with no problem, also.

    The first words out of his mouth were "Thanks for letting me know."

    He then asked if it was loaded and I told him no. The town I live in, Snow Hill, NC, has a local ordinance that you cannot carry or transport a loaded weapon. I related that ordinance to him.

    The next word out of his mouth was "Shiney." I thought to myself WTF is he talking about? The only thing shiny was the EXTRA 16rd mag next to my weapon.

    After that all he said was don't forget to get ur license renewed and that was it.





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    ncobserver wrote:
    He then asked if it was loaded and I told him no. The town I live in, Snow Hill, NC, has a local ordinance that you cannot carry or transport a loaded weapon. I related that ordinance to him.


    Might be worht checking this out. I would dig deeper before I asked too many questions. Sounds like that ordinance might be questionable at best.




    § 160A‑189. Firearms.

    A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place within the city except when used in defense of person or property or pursuant to lawful directions of law‑enforcement officers, and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit a city's authority to take action under Article 36A of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes. (1971, c. 698, s. 1.)



    (f) Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23, including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas, except nothing in this subsection shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas. Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from exercising powers provided by law in declared states of emergency under Article 36A of this Chapter.



    Emphasis mine. Just thinking out loud here. Generally when NC says you cannot possess a firearm on grounds it seems to mean physically possessing it while standing on said grounds. They generally allow them in vehicles on those grounds though. Or am I reading this wrong?





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    If he couldn't see the gun on the seat, then how did he know it was concealed there?
    He either saw it or didn't not both.

    But leaving on seat is as bad as sitting on dash, niether very secure.
    That what steering column holster is for. My datsun had a better mount but they
    stopped making the car.


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    I use a slide on belt holster on my seat belt, with it latched,and keep my arm rest up so it's visible.

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    wow, i can tell this one is going to go on for quite a while.

    im so glad i have a CCH permit............ :?

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    BRobb19 wrote:
    im so glad i have a CCH permit............ :?
    I have one as well but that's not the point.

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    I have a real question, no bullstuff. If I am in my car and open carry at my right kidney, that would be out of sight. When the LEO approaches and I say "I have a weapon". Is it still concealed?

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    2offroad wrote:
    I have a real question, no bullstuff. If I am in my car and open carry at my right kidney, that would be out of sight. When the LEO approaches and I say "I have a weapon". Is it still concealed?
    Good question. Does informing relieve you of having it in plain sight?

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    glock30 wrote:
    Good question. Does informing relieve you of having it in plain sight?
    IANAL: But I don't think so. In plain sight is in plain sight. simpyl telling an officer that one is under your coat doesn't suddenly make it "in plain sight" - but it might be exculpatory at your tiral, i.e. that you had no intent to "conceal" its presence...
    I have a real question, no bullstuff. If I am in my car and open carry at my right kidney, that would be out of sight. When the LEO approaches and I say "I have a weapon". Is it still concealed
    Ask six guys on here and you will get six different answers. Personally, I would say no, because while you are in the car, it is not in "plain view."

    Just my $.02

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