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Thread: Thoughts from the new guy

  1. #1
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    Greetings everyone, and thanks for the great resource.



    I'm glad I found you here, but at the same time I'm conflicted.



    It burns me to a crisp that I can't get a ccp in San Diego, because I have everywhere else I've ever lived (Oregon, Washington, Idaho).

    I like the idea of what you're doing, but the problem I see is people generally freak out when they see a gun. I'll happily take part in events, now that I know about the organization, but I'm concerned the trouble I'd run into just going through my normal daily routine, carrying open.

    I'd appreciate your thoughts on what people here think are the goals we should be striving for, and any info to help me get started.

    Sounds like you have a game plan worked out including having a voice recorder onhand, so someone please point me to the beginenrs threads!

    Thanks, -T






  2. #2
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    Consider this:

    ToCarry a Concealed loaded firearm in the State of California



    Minimum age requirement

    Good cause to carry concealed

    Residency in California

    Residency in a particular community or county

    Three letters of reference from local individuals

    Fees


    Detailed muli page initial application

    Wait period between appointments

    Approximately 2 hours of personal time to be interviewed

    Fingerprints

    Criminal background check

    16 Hours or less of APPROVED training regardless of any other training

    Proficiency/Marksmanship qualification 15 rounds minimum per weapon

    Proficiency with eachweapon to be carried

    115 rounds of personally purchased ammunition in one weapon situations

    Successfully passing a written test



    To carry an ANY exposed unloaded firearm and ammunition in the State of California



    Minimum age requirement

    No federal or state disqualifying factors



  3. #3
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    Tippet wrote:
    Greetings everyone, and thanks for the great resource.



    I'm glad I found you here, but at the same time I'm conflicted.



    It burns me to a crisp that I can't get a ccp in San Diego, because I have everywhere else I've ever lived (Oregon, Washington, Idaho).

    I like the idea of what you're doing, but the problem I see is people generally freak out when they see a gun. I'll happily take part in events, now that I know about the organization, but I'm concerned the trouble I'd run into just going through my normal daily routine, carrying open.

    I'd appreciate your thoughts on what people here think are the goals we should be striving for, and any info to help me get started.

    Sounds like you have a game plan worked out including having a voice recorder onhand, so someone please point me to the beginenrs threads!

    Thanks, -T




    get a good lawyer who will be willing to sue in federal court for you when your rights are violated. Learn the laws, where you can and cannot carry, and what the limits of the police are-what they can and cannot do when they stop you.

    Get it all on tape when at all possible for your protection.

    The goals? IMO: To get people to understand that the people have a right to keep and bear arms, and that a citizen with a gun is not a threat to anyone except the criminals.

    just my thoughts.

  4. #4
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    Tippet wrote:
    ...I like the idea of what you're doing, but the problem I see is people generally freak out when they see a gun.
    Welcome to the forum.

    Rule #1: When making a claim, provide evidence.

    What evidence leads you to believe that people "generally freak out" at the sight of a gun?

    I've carried in public somewhere around 100 times since July of 2007. I've never once seen someone become terrified and flee.

    The fact is that we have not experienced panic in any of our outings. I think you'd be hard pressed to find one story on this forum where someone panicked.

    Even if they did, I think it would be even more reason to carry. We'd be doing a public service by helping people confront their irrational fear of guns (aka hoplophobia).

    Again, welcome to the forum. I hope you learn to question the garbage placed in your head by Hollywood movies, the news, and the public education system.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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  5. #5
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    Tippet wrote:
    SNIPI like the idea of what you're doing, but the problem I see is people generally freak out when they see a gun.
    Welcome to the forum!

    I've had far more positive encounters with fellow citizens than negative. I can still pretty much count the negativeencounters on one hand. I lost track long ago of the positive ones. Far too many to keep track of.

    That's not to say you won't occasionally run into an idiot citizen or cop. Its happened to me, too. So, you do have to learn the law, learn your rights, and be ready for a negative encounter.

    Regarding cops, you have to weigh the risks.

    Regarding breathlessly terrified citizens, as another member of the forum put it, "They'll just have to get used to it." Its your right--and theirs! Its not your problem if they gave it up bygulping down the anti-gun propaganda without skepticism. There is just no way you are responsible for whatever ideas they have adopted for themselves such that they activate their own fear at the sight of your peacefully holstered handgun.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
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    Welcome to OCDO Tippet. It's good to have another [potential] OCer here. Please update your info to show what city (or county) you're in.

    You can start by going to www.californiaopencarry.org and printing out a copy of the penal code flier and the tri-fold pamphlet. If you're carrying, these are good to keep with you.

    Read the CA Penal codes. Namely secions 12025, 12026, 12031, 626.x

    Those are the most applicable.

    A comment about your concern... In my experience carrying in the past few months, I have not received any negative feedback from other civilians while carrying. I've only had 2 negative interactions with LEAs and 2 positive interactions with LEAs. So far those are the only people to respond negatively. I have had many positive interactions with people that left the conversation a bit more knowledgable on the subject.

    Inform yourself, protect yourself, and carry on!
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Thanks guys. I'm pretty sure I understand the laws. I guess tomorrow I'll try an experimental venture out with my unloaded kimber on my right hip and a couple full mags on my left. Don't have a voice recorder handy though.

    Last month I saw a guy at my local 7-11, he was looking quiteserious with a goodtactical gearand clothing- plus a beard and pony-tail. I didn't notice if there was a mag in the gun.He was hanging out reading the paper, kinda hovering near the door. At the time I assumed hewas a cop.

    I just got my coffee and moved on, forgot about it. It was right around the time I of the recent demonstrations at Mission Beach here in San Diego, as I later found out, so nowI figure he was an open carry brother. There were other people in the store and no one seemed the least concerned. I think they all must have assumed he was a cop, or that he'd been in there often enough the employees had already gotten used to the idea.

  8. #8
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    Tippet wrote:
    There were other people in the store and no one seemed the least concerned. I think they all must have assumed he was a cop, or that he'd been in there often enough the employees had already gotten used to the idea.
    Welcome to the board.

    The quoted observation is pretty typical- even in anti-gun California. There's still a chance that someone may call the police though- and that is where getting people used to the idea comes in...
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  9. #9
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    Tippet wrote:
    I guess tomorrow I'll try an experimental venture out with my unloaded kimber on my right hip and a couple full mags on my left. Don't have a voice recorder handy though.


    :shock:
    Take your time and do it right. Recorder, brochures, friendly witnesses, and knowledge.

    Read everything, that's read everything!, over at californiaopencarry.org including the LEO contacts. And read and understand the penal code by actually reading and understanding the PC not just our "cliff notes".

    Be safe and Carry On!







    artwork by oleg volk:


  10. #10
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    All right Cato I'll take your advice and plan my inaugural open-carry accordingly.

  11. #11
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    Tippet wrote:
    All right Cato I'll take your advice and plan my inaugural open-carry accordingly.
    In SD, there is almost NO excuse to be carrying solo. You guys don't know how good you got it to have such a large group of supporters and fellow activists there.

    That said, I encourage the cautious exercise of your rights. If you want to prove a point, arrange a group meet (like 4+ people). If you just want to have your SD tool handy, please consider "poor man CCW" (aka LUCC - Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry) as an alternative to UOC.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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  12. #12
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    I carry locked unloaded concealed all the time. MyKimber,cable-locked in the case in came in, no mag, with a padlock on the case. Same as when I take it on the airplane. In my car it goes in the trunk, on foot it's in my knapsack. Full mag of hollow-points in my pocket.

    Not much use for quick access, but better than having it at home.

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    Tippet wrote:
    I carry locked unloaded concealed all the time. MyKimber,cable-locked in the case in came in, no mag, with a padlock on the case. Same as when I take it on the airplane. In my car it goes in the trunk, on foot it's in my knapsack. Full mag of hollow-points in my pocket.

    Not much use for quick access, but better than having it at home.
    Just a note... DON'T carry a full mag in your pocket. Big no-no. Not illegal (as far as I know) but can be construed as illegally carried a concealed weapon because the mag is, in fact, part of the gun. Stupid, I know. Carry it in a mag pouch on your belt. Just to make sure you're completely in the clear.

    A speedloader is different, because it's not a part of the gun. THOSE can be carried in your pocket, no problem.

    Remember, just be careful.

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    eesh, I'd forgotten that, I read that a couple days ago. What about foregoing the cable lock and keeping an empty mag seated, or using a trigger-lock? The lock on the case alone ought tosatisfy the statute. Then I could keep the full mag in my pocket, out of sight and unlikely to attract attention.

    For now I want to continue carrying legally without attracting attention, at least until I can afford a suitable recording device.

  15. #15
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    Tippet wrote:
    eesh, I'd forgotten that, I read that a couple days ago. What about foregoing the cable lock and keeping an empty mag seated, or using a trigger-lock? The lock on the case alone ought tosatisfy the statute. Then I could keep the full mag in my pocket, out of sight and unlikely to attract attention.

    For now I want to continue carrying legally without attracting attention, at least until I can afford a suitable recording device.
    Not quite sure what you mean.... ummm.... my advice is: either carry openly and unloaded (you can even keep an empty mag in the gun if you wish) and have a loaded clip in a mag pouch on your belt, or keep the gun locked upa case and keep your loaded mag either on your belt or in the case with the gun. But I wouldn't, in any case, put the loaded mag in my pocket. Concealed part of a weapon and all that nonsense.

    And if you're looking for a cheap recorder, they have 'em at RadioShack for 25 bucks or so.... the ones that take the little tape cassette thingie. I got one for my little brother a year ago, they're pretty good quality.

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    My understanding is, if there's an empty mag in the gun, then the spare full mag can't be construed as part of the gun.

  17. #17
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    Tippet wrote:
    My understanding is, if there's an empty mag in the gun, then the spare full mag can't be construed as part of the gun.
    Hmm... good point. "CATO!!!" (yells for Cato.... much shouting and swearing....) Dangit. He's not home at the moment. Maybe when he gets back he can help us out in this little conundrum.

  18. #18
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    While that's good logical thinking, it hasn't been challenged (thus not proven to be true in the eyes of Johnny Law). Better safe than sorry at this point.

    Just my advice...

  19. #19
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    What about a loaded mag loosein the locked case w/ the cable-locked pistol?

  20. #20
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    Tippet wrote:
    What about a loaded mag loosein the locked case w/ the cable-locked pistol?
    Should be legal, as far as I know... don't think you need the cable lock if it's in a locked case though.

  21. #21
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    I'm not a lawyer, but let me see if I can clarify some of the above...

    The "component of a gun" case law that makes carrying a concealed magazine only applies if:

    (1) The mag has rounds in it

    AND

    (2) The gun is on your person (including in your vehicle or in any other way under your immediate control, such as in a suitcase, etc)

    AND

    (3) The gun is not in a fully enclosed, secure, locked container

    So, if the gun is holstered on your hip, a concealed mag can be a violation of PC12025. If the gun is at home, locked in your LUCC container, or locked in your trunk, PC12025 does not apply. (I'm drawing a blank on the party name for the case law... sorry I can't cite right now.)

    As for trigger or cable locks - no law requires you to use those. The only law I know of simply requires a gun to be sold with an approved lock. These types of locks do not help at all when trying to find exemption from any PC I know of, as they are not enclosing containers.

    As for full mags (there is no such thing as a "loaded" mag as far as the PC goes): see above for PC12025. As far as putting them in your lock box, there is no law against this. The only PC I know of only applies to known gang members or anybody while in the commission of a felony. (I assume none of us fit these categories.)

    Hope this helps.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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  22. #22
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    Tippet wrote:
    What about a loaded mag loosein the locked case w/ the cable-locked pistol?
    No Crime. and skip the "cable locked pistol" as that doesn't exempt anything in CA law. Unloaded in a locked case with loaded mag in the same case is fine per 12031/People v Clark.



    and from the California Highway Patrol
    I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

    California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

  23. #23
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    Look, all the yelling and swearing paid off. I got Cato to respond. Cool... I gotta try this more often...

  24. #24
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    fighting_for_freedom wrote:
    Look, all the yelling and swearing paid off. I got Cato to respond. Cool... I gotta try this more often...
    Ya keep it down over there I was trying to sleep...:P

  25. #25
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    OK cool thanks guys.



    So what about using a cable lock to secure the lockedcase and leaving the key in the cable lock? Kinda the same as using a combi lock, with the combi already dialed in.



    LOL I'll keep askin' 'em as long as you guys keep answerin' 'em!:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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