Thoughts from the new guy

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I'm not a lawyer, but let me see if I can clarify some of the above...

The "component of a gun" case law that makes carrying a concealed magazine only applies if:

(1) The mag has rounds in it

AND

(2) The gun is on your person (including in your vehicle or in any other way under your immediate control, such as in a suitcase, etc)

AND

(3) The gun is not in a fully enclosed, secure, locked container

So, if the gun is holstered on your hip, a concealed mag can be a violation of PC12025. If the gun is at home, locked in your LUCC container, or locked in your trunk, PC12025 does not apply. (I'm drawing a blank on the party name for the case law... sorry I can't cite right now.)

As for trigger or cable locks - no law requires you to use those. The only law I know of simply requires a gun to be sold with an approved lock. These types of locks do not help at all when trying to find exemption from any PC I know of, as they are not enclosing containers.

As for full mags (there is no such thing as a "loaded" mag as far as the PC goes): see above for PC12025. As far as putting them in your lock box, there is no law against this. The only PC I know of only applies to known gang members or anybody while in the commission of a felony. (I assume none of us fit these categories.)

Hope this helps.

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Tippet wrote:

What about a loaded mag loosein the locked case w/ the cable-locked pistol?

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No Crime. and skip the "cable locked pistol" as that doesn't exempt anything in CA law. Unloaded in a locked case with loaded mag in the same case is fine per 12031/People v Clark.



and from the California Highway Patrol

I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

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Look, all the yelling and swearing paid off. I got Cato to respond. Cool... I gotta try this more often...

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fighting_for_freedom wrote:

Look, all the yelling and swearing paid off. I got Cato to respond. Cool... I gotta try this more often...

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Ya keep it down over there I was trying to sleep...

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OK cool thanks guys.



So what about using a cable lock to secure the lockedcase and leaving the key in the cable lock? Kinda the same as using a combi lock, with the combi already dialed in.



LOL I'll keep askin' 'em as long as you guys keep answerin' 'em!:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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The law says locked case, doesn't say anything about really freakin easy to open locked case. I'd assume that a key in the lock is cool. Let them try and nitpick. Law says locked, case is locked... case closed.

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but let me see if I can clarify some of the above...

The "component of a gun" case law that makes carrying a concealed magazine only applies if:

(1) The mag has rounds in it

AND

(2) The gun is on your person (including in your vehicle or in any other way under your immediate control, such as in a suitcase, etc)

AND

(3) The gun is not in a fully enclosed, secure, locked container

So, if the gun is holstered on your hip, a concealed mag can be a violation of PC12025. If the gun is at home, locked in your LUCC container, or locked in your trunk, PC12025 does not apply. (I'm drawing a blank on the party name for the case law... sorry I can't cite right now.)

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It would be helpful to me if you could cite this as I am failing to see how a gun with an empty mag would not be considered a complete weapon; and how a loaded but concealed mag would be considered a necessarypart to make this complete weapon more complete. It is a spare mag. I must remove the one to use the other. Thanks.

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Sons of Liberty wrote:

CA_Libertarian wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but let me see if I can clarify some of the above...

The "component of a gun" case law that makes carrying a concealed magazine only applies if:

(1) The mag has rounds in it

AND

(2) The gun is on your person (including in your vehicle or in any other way under your immediate control, such as in a suitcase, etc)

AND

(3) The gun is not in a fully enclosed, secure, locked container

So, if the gun is holstered on your hip, a concealed mag can be a violation of PC12025. If the gun is at home, locked in your LUCC container, or locked in your trunk, PC12025 does not apply. (I'm drawing a blank on the party name for the case law... sorry I can't cite right now.)

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It would be helpful to me if you could cite this as I am failing to see how a gun with an empty mag would not be considered a complete weapon; and how a loaded but concealed mag would be considered a necessarypart to make this complete weapon more complete. It is a spare mag. I must remove the one to use the other. Thanks.

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That's the point. Its not.

If there is case law, then it was likely a criminal case where the issue that was appealed was a lower court not suppressing evidence. Many of those, if not most, are criminals for which other evidence supported the conviction,so the courts, in my opinion, tend to find ways to let the convictions stand. Add in the possibility of a court that doesn't care for gun rights and there is no reason for them to bother considering the effect on law-abiding, lawfully armed citizens, or to minimize or trivialize that possible effect.

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Citizen wrote:

Sons of Liberty wrote:

CA_Libertarian wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but let me see if I can clarify some of the above...

The "component of a gun" case law that makes carrying a concealed magazine only applies if:

(1) The mag has rounds in it

AND

(2) The gun is on your person (including in your vehicle or in any other way under your immediate control, such as in a suitcase, etc)

AND

(3) The gun is not in a fully enclosed, secure, locked container

So, if the gun is holstered on your hip, a concealed mag can be a violation of PC12025. If the gun is at home, locked in your LUCC container, or locked in your trunk, PC12025 does not apply. (I'm drawing a blank on the party name for the case law... sorry I can't cite right now.)

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It would be helpful to me if you could cite this as I am failing to see how a gun with an empty mag would not be considered a complete weapon; and how a loaded but concealed mag would be considered a necessarypart to make this complete weapon more complete. It is a spare mag. I must remove the one to use the other. Thanks.

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That's the point. Its not.

If there is case law, then it was likely a criminal case where the issue that was appealed was a lower court not suppressing evidence. Many of those, if not most, are criminals for which other evidence supported the conviction,so the courts, in my opinion, tend to find ways to let the convictions stand. Add in the possibility of a court that doesn't care for gun rights and there is no reason for them to bother considering the effect on law-abiding, lawfully armed citizens, or to minimize or trivialize that possible effect.

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I don't seem to follow. Let's say, I have a Glock with an unloaded mag initand this "complete" gun is open carried on my belt holster. In addition, I have another unloaded mag and I have it in my coat pocket. Are you saying that the current court interpretation is that I am in violation of PC12025? What if it were a spare firing pin that was in my coat pocket instead of the mag? Am I in violation of PC12025? What if the spare mag or spare firing pin were ones I just picked up from the gun store and they were in the bag I was carrying home while UOC'ing? I don't see how spare parts fall under PC12025. Could you clarify? Thanks.

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Sons of Liberty wrote:

Could you clarify? Thanks.

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No we can't really.

People v Hale is a tortured decision. We suspect that IF you have an unloadedmag in the firearm and a loaded one concealed that oneMAY then have a defense against a Hale like interpretation of 12025. We can't guarantee that so we recommend carrying mag either openly ifOCingor locked per 12025 if concealing lawfully. There are DAs in CA who will look for every angle to crusify an OCers if they can.

I don't know of any "Hale" like prosecutions based on concealed mags only but that would mostly be at the trial level and notthat easily researched.Plus atrue "Hale" like situation isvery rare IMO.

Have you read Hale?

And for UOC it is best to keep things very KISS.



artwork by oleg volk:

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Found my cite: it's People v. Hale (1974 - 43 Cal.App.3d 353)

Here's the pertinent part:

...[2] In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025...

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The circumstances of the case were: exposed/unloaded firearm + concealed mag w/unexpended rounds.

So, it's not just concealing an "essential component." You must do so in a fashion that makes the weapon "readily available for use" as a firearm.

It's bad case law, but it's what we gotta live with for now.

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Sorry for posting out of topic but cato where do you get all the good images at the end of your post? You seem to have a lot of good ones.

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freedom4all333333 wrote:

Sorry for posting out of topic but cato where do you get all the good images at the end of your post? You seem to have a lot of good ones.

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just a wild-ass guess, but I bet if you google "oleg volk" you'll find your answer

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Thanks, good stuff.

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Reading the discussion on [full] mags, does that mean that mags visible in holders are not considered concealed?

Given that a firearm openly carried in a holster is not considered concealed.

What about a "mag holder" that is visible on a holster?

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demnogis wrote:

Reading the discussion on [full] mags, does that mean that mags visible in holders are not considered concealed?

Given that a firearm openly carried in a holster is not considered concealed.

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Presumably this would be an easily defeated charge if someone attempted to prosecute it. There isn't any current case-law or legislation which directly addresses this.

demnogis wrote:

What about a "mag holder" that is visible on a holster?

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There was an arrest for this of a Marine in Oceanside last year on the 4th of July. IIRC Calguns.net helped with his defense.

I can't remember if the charges were officially dropped or if the DA simply chose not to prosecute. I think the current status is that the City Attorney might prosecute - I'm not sure how that works.

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demnogis wrote:

Reading the discussion on [full] mags, does that mean that mags visible in holders are not considered concealed?

Given that a firearm openly carried in a holster is not considered concealed.

What about a "mag holder" that is visible on a holster?

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If the DA attempts to prosecute under PC 12025, and uses Hale to construe your mag as an "essential component"... then yes, 12025(g) would be an exemption applicable to mags.

I only suggest that your mag holder be an actual mag holster. For example, a belt-mounted fanny pack isn't a holster. Basically, if it's designed specifically to hold mags, then you should be OK, even if it fully encloses the mags.

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mjones wrote:

demnogis wrote:

What about a "mag holder" that is visible on a holster?

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There was an arrest for this of a Marine in Oceanside last year on the 4th of July. IIRC Calguns.net helped with his defense.

I can't remember if the charges were officially dropped or if the DA simply chose not to prosecute. I think the current status is that the City Attorney might prosecute - I'm not sure how that works.

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He was charged with a violation of 12031. When CGF explained the statute and case law to the DA, charges were quickly dropped.

The marine is still waiting on possible charges to be brought by the City Attorney for a violation of a local ordinance (I guess they have a "no guns on the beach" law). This ordinance is preempted by state law, so it should be easily defeated if charges are ever actually brought.

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just going offona tangent -about carry systems...

Here's my belt/holster/mag system- CB4 contour belt, FLETCH hi-rise and a DMC mag case- yep, I even coughed the $$ for a contouredgun belt. It's held up a couple years so far and no sign of failing, though it doesn't look quite as nice as the picture.

I spent money on good gear, but these days I'm too broke to buy a voice recorder.

I think my mag case is ok, as the mags stick out the top and don't conceal the mags. But then again since when did common sense enter in to it, holy smokes I can't believe concealed mags is even an issue.









I also have a miami classic with a double mag case, it's a hell of a lot more comfortable while driving. Why isn't anyone talking about shoulder carry? seems like everyone here is using a belt rig.

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Tippet wrote:

Snip

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Why isn't anyone talking about shoulder carry? seems like everyone here is using a belt rig.

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Probably because the law uses 'an openly carried belt holster' or something along those lines as an example of not concealed. It's just an example, but I don't think anybody's pushed their luck yet. I carry in a shoulder holster all the time out here in Colorado, much more comfortable and can draw in a car, sitting... just about any position.

We would have to wait until somebody is arrested for carrying in a shoulder holster to see what would happen.