Another dumb question from DarkHorse...

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gotm4 wrote:

What's the charge going to be?

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That's the $64,000 question. Carrying a concealed weapon??As in above and beyond the one hangun the permit allows you?? Would the magistrate issue the warrant? Ifthe magistrate does issue the warrant, is the commonwealth attorney going to back the cop and magistrate, or is he/she going to drop the charge? Once in court, what is the judge going to rule? What would the appeal courts rule??

If a man (Dan) can be falsely arrested for legally and openly carrying a firearm repeatedly, why can the same type of three ring circusnot happen to a CHP holder?

Anotherpoint I suppose I am making, a man comes to the forums and asks what is perceived by many to bea "YES" or "NO" question. But the answer is not that simple, it's not a definitive YES or NO. There is no case law. There have been no arrests.... yet. IMHO, it becomes a YES or NO question only after case law exists. Maybe the correct answer should have been, "We just don't know, we think it's OK to carry more than one handgun. The law has never been tested, nobody has ever been arrested yet for carrying more than one!"

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That's a good point, Sheriff, and one that several folks around here often try to make: "Here's the law (or at least a portion of it), here's the logic, here's the reality, here's the possibility. Don't just look at the parts that you like, because the parts you don't like may be the ones that get applied when you become the test case."

It's up to each of us to decide what we're going to do, and we need to be aware of and prepared to deal with the consequences of our decisions.

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If I'm not mistaken (I'm not an attorney nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) but IIRC the way law works is that something is legal unless there's a law that says it's illegal.....

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm

The law doesn't clearly indicate single or multiple handguns thus I'm fairly certain no charges would stick, where it wouldn't work would be if one were concealing both a handgun and a longgun since the permit is only applies for handguns and clear in the code that way.

And yes I'm on first name basis with one of my local magistrates (he's a great customer of mine) and the Commonwealths Attorney Paul Ebert (he signed my Form 4 for my 1st SBR)........

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gotm4 wrote:

The law doesn't clearly indicate single or multiple handguns thus I'm fairly certain no charges would stick, where it wouldn't work would be if one were concealing both a handgun and a longgun since the permit is only applies for handguns and clear in the code that way.

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gotm4, I remind you once again that the law does clearly say you can apply for a permit to carry a concealed HANDGUN, as in singular. The lawdoes not say HANDGUNS, as in plural. Read the reply right above yours very slowly. I think you, like many, are interpreting the law in the manner you wish to. And what happens when the cop does the same, and his opinion does not agree with yours? You say that you can by virtue of the Concealed Handgun Permit carry more than one handgun, the cop says you can't. You're in handcuffs and riding to the Magistrate's Office in the back seat of a cop car.

This is proven history time and time again throughout this great nation, cops do not always do the right thing when a civilian's gun rights are involved. And I will say it once again.... I don't care what anybody else here says, the majority of cops do not think civilains should be allowed to possess and carry handguns. The majority of cops feel that any and all handguns pose a serious risk to their safety. I don't care if you are a bank president in a $2,000 three piece suit and driving a $118,000 Mercedes, you're nothing more than a SUSPECT once a cop determines you have a handgun or weapon upong your person that can be used against them. You could easily find yourself face down on wet pavement right in the $2,000 suit on a rainy night.



gotm4 wrote:

And yes I'm on first name basis with one of my local magistrates (he's a great customer of mine) and the Commonwealths Attorney Paul Ebert (he signed my Form 4 for my 1st SBR)........

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My best friend is a recently retired Magistrate with 33 years on the job. He was a cop prior to this. He and I discussed this issue the last time it came up here on the forums. While he says he wouldn't issue a warrant forRambo Rookie based on a person carrying a concealed weapon and a backup gun, he feels there are far too many new and young inexperienced magistrates that would. And he says he feels they would because, as agents of the state,these rookie magistratesfeel some sort of obligation to protect cops from false arrest lawsuits. Once a cop arrests somebody and hauls them in front of a magistrate, they are in deep doo-doo if the magistrate refuses to issue a warrant. It's some of the best evidence in the world in proceeding with a false arrest lawsuit against the cop.

Upon pressing him very hard in this discussion, I asked how he would feel if a cop brought in a suspect accused of carrying half a dozen concealed handguns. He would never give me a direct answer. All he would say is he didn't feel it would ever happen, a non-issue as he called it, and he would have to give it some serious thought once it had happened.

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ps - in visiting my best friend at his place of employment (the Magistate's Office) several times a week for 33 years, I can tell you I have seen him refusecountless warrants over the years based ona cop's interpretation of a law. I have seen many "suspects" walk out of the Magistrate's Office with no warrants being issued against them. Not long ago, I personally witnessed a cop threaten my magistrate friend for refusing to write a warrant based on the cop's interpretation of the law. He stormed out of the office and claimed he would be back with his supervisor who would MAKE the magistrate issue the warrant whether he liked it or not. Some of you don't understand the mentality of some of these young rookies out on the street. Never underestimate a rookie'snext mistake or false arrest.

One of the funniest events I recall in recent time was when a cop took a cell phone off a drug arrest suspect. He searched the cell phone for contacts stored in memory. He pretty much found what he was looking for. He then went to my friend magistrate and requested a search warrant of the cell phone. The magistrate refused the search warrant because the cop had already proceeded to and had searched the cell phone without asearch warrant. So no informationthe cop found in the cell phone could be used as evidence against the suspect.

In another case, thedetainee was cut free by the magistrate with no warrants being issued. The magistrate told thedetainee he was free to go. The rookie cop on the other hand continued to detain the person, told him to sit back down, and proceeded to argue with the magistrate as to the issuance of the warrant. Now think about the ramifications here... detained and unlawfully arrested to begin with, verbally released by the magistrate, then detained by the same rookie officer once again.

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Sheriff wrote:

DarkHorse wrote:

.....one the hip and one on the ankle. Was not planning anything more than that.

Anyone one ever heard of multiple carry of a ccwbeing brought up in any VA court case?

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I have never seen or heard of a test case...... yet.

But you bring up the point I am basically trying to make. It's OK for a cop to carry a "backup" gun on the ankle. But you let a cop catch a civilian doing it..... what's gonna happen? Is he/she going to blow a fuse and do something stupid based on the singular wording in the state code? Just one blown fuse and we'll have out first Virginia test case.

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Well, I certainly do not want to be the test case. I guess it is best to hold off until we know exactly how the law would apply here.

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I'm guessing I can carry three handguns since I have VA, PA and Utah.....

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As Val Kilmer said in his role of Doc Holliday in the movie Tombstone (after Johney Ringoaccused him of being so drunk he was seeing double): "I have two guns; one for each of you."

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Don Barnett wrote:

As Val Kilmer said in his role of Doc Holliday in the movie Tombstone (after Johney Ringoaccused him of being so drunk he was seeing double): "I have two guns; one for each of you."

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AHH yes that was one of the best scenes in that movie yeah i got it bad look at my avatar lol.

Sherriff where are you located? if i may ask i understand if you cant disclose just wondering. I hope my fine Augusta co is as pro #2 as you seem to be and as up to date on laws

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Sheriff wrote:

While he says he wouldn't issue a warrant forRambo Rookie based on a person carrying a concealed weapon and a backup gun, he feels there are far too many new and young inexperienced magistrates that would. And he says he feels they would because, as agents of the state,these rookie magistratesfeel some sort of obligation to protect cops from false arrest lawsuits. Once a cop arrests somebody and hauls them in front of a magistrate, they are in deep doo-doo if the magistrate refuses to issue a warrant. It's some of the best evidence in the world in proceeding with a false arrest lawsuit against the cop.

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Apparently some people, cops and magistrates alike, don't quite understand what a magistrate is for, if this is how the insiders view the system.

As for how many guns, and cops v. civilians, this section of 18.2-308 addresses cops with a single handgun also:

J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

I bet the question of 'how many' was never even thought of when this law was crafted and debated. Seems to me the issue is the legality of concealing a weapon that lends itself to concealability, therefore no 'concealed rifle permit.' Also, it's not a permit to carry an 'open' handgun. Yes I can see room for debate, but I doubt seriously there would be any criminal penalty incurred, especially if you used an attorney. Look at it as finding a winning lottery licket issues by the city you get arrested in!

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We're really just talking about possibility vs. probability now.

There's a possibility that I might be struck by lightening when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll still leave the house tomorrow.....

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gotm4 wrote:

We're really just talking about possibility vs. probability now.

There's a possibility that I might be struck by lightening when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll still leave the house tomorrow.....

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There's a possibility a supermodel will fall head over heals in love with me when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll will leave the house tomorrow. Yeah, I like them odds better..... :^).

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Neplusultra wrote:

gotm4 wrote:

We're really just talking about possibility vs. probability now.

There's a possibility that I might be struck by lightening when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll still leave the house tomorrow.....

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There's a possibility a supermodel will fall head over heals in love with me when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll will leave the house tomorrow. Yeah, I like them odds better..... :^).

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Now, wait a minute. Lets think this through. If there are more of us leaving your house at the same time, the odds increase for a supermodel to fall head over heals for at least one of us, no?

Everybody to Neplus's house for breakfast!!!!

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Citizen wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

gotm4 wrote:

We're really just talking about possibility vs. probability now.

There's a possibility that I might be struck by lightening when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll still leave the house tomorrow.....

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There's a possibility a supermodel will fall head over heals in love with me when I leave the house tomorrow but the probability is pretty low. Thus I'll will leave the house tomorrow. Yeah, I like them odds better..... :^).

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Now, wait a minute. Lets think this through. If there are more of us leaving your house at the same time, the odds increase for a supermodel to fall head over heals for at least one of us, no?

Everybody to Neplus's house for breakfast!!!!

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I want blueberry pancakes!