Kensington Metro Park anyone?

Michigander · Apr 15, 2009

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Venator wrote:

We went back and forth for a bit and bottom line was he told me, (again I’m paraphrasing) we follow Michigan law, you carry in a Metropark you will be arrested.

I seriously hope he has something more intelligent than that to say when he emails you. :uhoh:

khicks · Apr 15, 2009

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chief phifer at the metro park has a boss some where. whether a county commissioner, some one this chief has to report to. i think it would be a good idea to call on him/her

khicks · Apr 18, 2009

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i was able to get some info on kensington metropark from my state rep. i can contact them my self or i can forword the info to any of you and see if we can get a more under standing person to talk to.

Venator · Apr 21, 2009

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This was posted on the MGO site. The chief seems to concede that CC is legal with a CPL, but no mention of OC. Since he states he follows state law and cites the concealed carry law that leads me to believe that OC is okay. So we should proceed with an OC picnic in one of the parks. Below is from the Chief of Police for the Metro-parks.

The State law does cite the requirements for carrying a Concealed Weapon.
Our department follows the State Law requirements.
I have attached a copy of the State of Michigan Law regarding CCW.

Here is the statue on this law: MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
***This was an attachment, but I’m including it here so you can see what it says.***
750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Thank you,

George Phifer,

Chief of Police

LaVere · Apr 21, 2009

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The State law does cite the requirements for carrying a Concealed Weapon.
Our department follows the State Law requirements.
I have attached a copy of the State of Michigan Law regarding CCW.

Here is the statue on this law: MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
***This was an attachment, but I’m including it here so you can see what it says.***
750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Thank you,

George Phifer,

Chief of Police

Who in the heck can understand this political legalize double talk.

Just make it. Right to carry anyplace, any time, anyway you choose to best fit your safety needs.

LaVere · Apr 21, 2009

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Is this picnic a go. What time to meet and where in Metro park?

Michigander · Apr 21, 2009

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Yep, still on, unless everyone who wants to go cancels.

The easiest thing might be meeting at the parking lot nearest to the entrance, and going from there to whatever spot we want.

I like salads, so I can bring the rabbit food and dressings. Possibly other stuff, if needed.

khicks · Apr 24, 2009

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i have made contact with some onr higher on the food chainat the metro parks, trying to enlighten them on open carry

dear sir i have tryed to leave you a phone message but i recived no
reply. i am a member of opencarry.org a pro gun, pro open carry org. we have
plans to do a informational picnic at kensington metro park this summer and
checked with chif phifer about our plans. and have been told that if we show
up, we will be aressted. we have tryed to explane to the mr phifer that open
carry is legle in the state of michigan and your own park rules say the
metro parks fallow state law, preemination signed by the govenor in 1990
states that no from of local goverment can in act gun laws more restrictive
then state laws

his reply

Dear Mr. Hicks,

I will need to follow-up with Chief Phifer to see what he said to you. Were
you asking about carrying weapons openly while holding a picnic in the park
only or were you asking about conducting a public program or demonstration
in the park?

I will get back with you.

Thanks,

khicks · Apr 24, 2009

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here is my reply

thank you for replying os fast

1st the chief did not say that to me, but said this to the orginizer of the
picnic
2nd this will be a picnic open to members of open carry.org and to any one
else that would like to get more info on open carry in michigan.
information will given or handed out about open carry in michigan to any one
who askes for the info
3rd most of us plan on open carrying, as per state law
4th all we want is a simple yes or no

and this is what i get back

Mr. Hicks

Here is some additional information regarding CCW/CCL, and pistol free zone.

The information was that I was referring to was related to the type of CCW that a person may have.

Some CCW/CCL has restrictions placed on them.

Be sure to check your CCW/CCL to determine if yours is restricted or non-restricted.

One example would be, Business owners are sometimes limited to carrying a weapon, when transporting goods and/or currency to and from work.

I have also attached a copy the pistol free zones listed on the Sate of Michigan website.

A person would be allowed to carry a concealed weapon in the Metroparks, as long as it meets the state guidelines.

Let me know if you have any further questions on this information.

Thank you,

Venator · Apr 24, 2009

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khicks wrote:

here is my reply

thank you for replying os fast

1st the chief did not say that to me, but said this to the orginizer of the
picnic
2nd this will be a picnic open to members of open carry.org and to any one
else that would like to get more info on open carry in michigan.
information will given or handed out about open carry in michigan to any one
who askes for the info
3rd most of us plan on open carrying, as per state law
4th all we want is a simple yes or no
and this is what i get back

Mr. Hicks

Here is some additional information regarding CCW/CCL, and pistol free zone.
The information was that I was referring to was related to the type of CCW that a person may have.
Some CCW/CCL has restrictions placed on them.
Be sure to check your CCW/CCL to determine if yours is restricted or non-restricted.
One example would be, Business owners are sometimes limited to carrying a weapon, when transporting goods and/or currency to and from work.
I have also attached a copy the pistol free zones listed on the Sate of Michigan website.
A person would be allowed to carry a concealed weapon in the Metroparks, as long as it meets the state guidelines.
Let me know if you have any further questions on this information.
Thank you,

What Fing decade is this guy living in. They haven't had business restrictions on CPL since shall issue. His comment above in redtells me he is way behind the times.

As far as I know the only box checked is for the special elite part of our society that can carry concealed in a CEZ. He is really trying to dodge answering the question.

OC4me · Apr 24, 2009

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This guy is just playing dumb since he obviously gave you a non-answer to a simple request for a Yes/No on open-carry!

Good grief!

By now he should be smart enough to have found this thread and actually be reading it (the chief too). Just say yes to the question and get it over with!

Open carry is completely legal.

khicks · Apr 24, 2009

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i was even having a hard time believing what was sent to me. i plan on replying to this person and adding more info. i plan on posting my letter here first.if i get another goofy reply i Will go up to the next person and start over. i love a challenge

SpringerXDacp · Apr 24, 2009

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OC4me wrote:

This guy is just playing dumb since he obviously gave you a non-answer to a simple request for a Yes/No on open-carry!

Good grief!

By now he should be smart enough to have found this thread and actually be reading it (the chief too). Just say yes to the question and get it over with!

Open carry is completely legal.

The Metro Parks are public and funded by taxes, entry fees, etc. However, there's a bit of concern (gray area) whether or not the Metro Parks are subject to 123.1102 (Michigan's Preemption Law of 1990). The Huron-Clinton Metro Parksoperate by a Board of Commissioners and not bythe typical state, county or city parks we're familar to.

IANAL, but, IMO, with the Metro Parks being funded primarily by taxes, entry fees, etc, they are subject to preemption.

khicks · Apr 25, 2009

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i am trying to get the metro parks to say we can carry there weather open or concealed. i do not believe the parks are exempt from preemtion

khicks · Apr 25, 2009

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here is the letter i was planing to send next

Dear Sir

There must be some misunderstanding between us (ccw) is a criminal charge in Michigan, a ccl I have no idea what that is. I do believe that you are referring to is a Michigan cpl (carry concealed pistol) license, and the box you are referring about is the exemption from pistol free zones, and this not what I was contacting you about.

What I was referring to is OPEN CARRY (the carrying of a loaded hand gun on ones hip or person in full view, and easily seen). Open carry I legal in Michigan by state law, see links included.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf

Huron valley metro parks are not listed as a pistol free zone by the State of Michigan for either concealed or open carry, Your park rules at one point says that the park fallows Michigan state law, that means open and concealed carry is legal in side the park.

The rules also state the possion of a fire arm in the park is prohibited, this may be true for hunting and target shooting and other things, but for carrying openly or concealed, this rule is unenforceable due to preemption by State of Michigan Law

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

THE MICHIGAN COURT of APPEALS CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that theFerndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

Is there a way we can talk on the phone, I wish to resolve any misunderstandings there mite be, My cell phone is 734-xxx-xxxx I can site other legal opinions that will even further prove my point of view, or maybe you should contact your legal department for there input

SpringerXDacp · Apr 25, 2009

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khicks wrote:

i am trying to get the metro parks to say we can carry there weather open or concealed. i do not believe the parks are exempt from preemtion

Khicks, thanks for for your efforts to help resolve this issue, but help me try to understand why you think (in your reply) the Metro Parks are not subject to preemption when, in your letter, you said:

"The rules also state the possion (possession) of a fire arm in the park is prohibited, this may be true for hunting and target shooting and other things, but for carrying openly or concealed, this rule is unenforceable due to preemption by State of Michigan Law"

khicks · Apr 25, 2009

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This is my opinion and my opinion only ianal

The metro parks is a part of county government, we pay taxes that help support the metro parks as well as fees to enter the parks make up the yearly budget. This is no deferent then the property taxes we pay that my support our city or county parks. As in our local city and county parks is also lawful to carry openly as well as concealed in.

The appointed board of directors, one person comes form each county that makes up the metro parks and one from the governor. This makes the metro parks a local unit of government; a local unit city of government onto its self, preemption applies

SpringerXDacp · Apr 25, 2009

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khicks wrote:

This is my opinion and my opinion only ianal

The metro parks is a part of county government, we pay taxes that help support the metro parks as well as fees to enter the parks make up the yearly budget. This is no deferent then the property taxes we pay that my support our city or county parks. As in our local city and county parks is also lawful to carry openly as well as concealed in.

The appointed board of directors, one person comes form each county that makes up the metro parks and one from the governor. This makes the metro parks a local unit of government; a local unit city of government onto its self, preemption applies

This is/was my opinion as well. But you said "i do not believe the parks are exempt from preemtion" in your reply.

When you say "i do not believe the parks are exempt from preemtion" what is implied by this statement is that you do not believe the prohibition of firearms in the Metro Parks are unenforceable and therefore the prohibition of firearms in the Metro Parks are valid.

In other words, we both believe, in our own opinion, that Metro Parks are covered by preemption and therefore, OC and CC is legal.

Venator · Apr 25, 2009

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khicks wrote:

here is the letter i was planing to send next

Dear Sir

There must be some misunderstanding between us (ccw) is a criminal charge in Michigan, a ccl I have no idea what that is. I do believe that you are referring to is(delete) a Michigan cpl (carry concealed pistol) license, and the box you are referring about is the exemption from pistol free zones, and this is not what I was contacting you about.

What I was referring to is OPEN CARRY (the carrying of a loaded hand gun on ones hip or person in full view, and easily seen). Open carry (I) is legal in Michigan by state law, see links included.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf

Huron valley metro parks are not listed as a pistol free zone by the State of Michigan for either concealed or open carry, Your park rules at one point says that the park (fallows) Follows Michigan state law, that means open and concealed carry is legal inside the park.

The rules also state the (possion) possession of a firearm in the park is prohibited, this may be true for hunting and target shooting and other things, but for carrying openly or concealed, this rule is unenforceable due to preemption by StateLaw

In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

Is there a way we can talk on the phone, I wish to resolve any misunderstandings there (mite) might be, My cell phone is 734-xxx-xxxx I can (site) citeother legal opinions that willdelete further prove my points delete, delete or you (should) cancontact your legal department for (there) theirinput

Needs a little work on grammar and typos. Also there is no law that allows OC. There is no law against it so it's legal. Look over some of my comments in red, some spelling some deletions. You can figure it out. Thanks for your effort.

Michigander · Apr 25, 2009

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Venator wrote:

Also there is no law that allows OC.

I would say there sorta is. You have the US and Michigan constitutions, and that 1927 law which as I recall says specifically that the registration process is a license to carry.

Kensington Metro Park anyone?

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