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Thread: OC Allowed on Motorcycles and Bicycles

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I just got off the phone with the MSP after a lengthy discussion about OC on bicycles and motorcycles. They informed me that it is the opinion of the attorney general that it is in fact legal to OC on those devices. This was decided upon within the last year. When I asked for written proof, the officer told me that since OC is legal only because there is no statute against it, they don't have any text to send out for the same reason. (If someone comes across this AG Opinion I'd appreciate it if it could be posted here. She said that she didn't save the email with the opinion in it.) If detained by a misinformed officer, one only needs to have the officer call the Firearms Records Unit. I was told that every officer in that unit knows this policy, which means that they will be able to clear the air in case of a misunderstanding with local police. The reasoning behind allowing this is that since you're not enclosed on a motorcycle or bicycle, the weapon is not concealed.

    Firearms Records Unit
    (517) 322-5518

    Michigan State Police
    (517) 332-2521

    Good numbers to keep in your phone!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    You make not reference that i can see to if this was stated to MSP as with or without a CPL. In my original post I was referring to without a CPL, and you stated that it is legal on a motorcycle, which makes me believe that you are referring to with a CPL. I Have also contacted MSP about this, and I am still waiting for a reply.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    xd9sc wrote:
    You make not reference that i can see to if this was stated to MSP as with or without a CPL.* In my original post I was referring to without a CPL, and you stated that it is legal on a motorcycle, which makes me believe that you are referring to with a CPL.* I Have also contacted MSP about this, and I am still waiting for a reply.
    This is in regards to a person without a CPL. If a person has a CPL then they can already legally carry in a vehicle so there would be no question.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    xd9sc wrote:
    You make not reference that i can see to if this was stated to MSP as with or without a CPL. In my original post I was referring to without a CPL, and you stated that it is legal on a motorcycle, which makes me believe that you are referring to with a CPL. I Have also contacted MSP about this, and I am still waiting for a reply.
    This is in regards to a person without a CPL. If a person has a CPL then they can already legally carry in a vehicle so there would be no question.
    A motorcycle is considered a vehicle in Michigan. Only by Michigan's No-Fault Law is it not considered a vehicle.A motorcycle in Michigan, same as a car or truck, needs to be licensed and insured to commute our roads and highways. There, IMO, whether you OC or CC on a motorcycle, you need a CPL to do so.

    The Attorney General Opinion mentioned earlier, IIRC, pertains to a requirement to hold a CPL toCC on a motorcycle. I'll try to find it.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    EM87,

    Is it possible that the person you talked to had their head up somewhere? If not, COOL. but....

    We MUST be absolutely positive, without a doubt, before we (MOC)can say it's legal. Because if it's really not legal then the outcome is a FELONY.

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I'll call back and make sure that it applies to non-CPL holders. When I get an answer I'll post it.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Get names too.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Also, position title. What if he/she turns out to be someone without the authority to make such a judgement?

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    WARCHILD wrote:
    Also, position title. What if he/she turns out to be someone without the authority to make such a judgement?
    I'm sorry to say but the only person with the authority to make such a judgement is AG Mike Cox.



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    Technically, even Mike Cox can't make a for sure, without a doubt, no worries decision. The ONLY decision that really counts is case-law at the Michigan Supreme Court Level. Since there isn't any, well.. yeah... I know I don't want to be the test case to create some.

    Ben

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I'm just waiting for Monday to roll around again. I'll be able to clarify the subject then, when everyone is back in the office.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I just got off the phone with someone at the Firearms Records Unit and was told the same thing: that OC is allowed on bicycles and motorcycles without a CPL. I asked for written proof but was told that there is none because that's the reason it's legal. No AG opinion, no MSP opinion, nothing. The officer told me that as long as the pistol isn't concealed while upon the bike/motorcycle then you're open carrying and it's legal.

    The problem I have with what I was told is that once I got off the phone, I looked up the law in another post on this forum.

    "750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty."

    What I was told contradicts what is written in the law (in terms of on a motorcycle). I find this odd because I was told the same thing twice by the MSP. Quite frankly, I am frustrated to the point of not wanting to look into this further because I can't get a solid, non-contradictory answer.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    EM87 wrote:
    I just got off the phone with someone at the Firearms Records Unit and was told the same thing: that OC is allowed on bicycles and motorcycles without a CPL. I asked for written proof but was told that there is none because that's the reason it's legal. No AG opinion, no MSP opinion, nothing. The officer told me that as long as the pistol isn't concealed while upon the bike/motorcycle then you're open carrying and it's legal.

    The problem I have with what I was told is that once I got off the phone, I looked up the law in another post on this forum.

    "750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty."

    What I was told contradicts what is written in the law (in terms of on a motorcycle). I find this odd because I was told the same thing twice by the MSP. Quite frankly, I am frustrated to the point of not wanting to look into this further because I can't get a solid, non-contradictory answer.
    All my research has show it to be illegal on a motorcycle and questionable on a bicycle. I wouldn't count on the opinion of that person. I would get something in writing from the officer in question, email something.

    I don't advise anyone without a CPL to OC on a motorcycle.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    EM87 wrote:
    I just got off the phone with someone at the Firearms Records Unit and was told the same thing: that OC is allowed on bicycles and motorcycles without a CPL. I asked for written proof but was told that there is none because that's the reason it's legal. No AG opinion, no MSP opinion, nothing. The officer told me that as long as the pistol isn't concealed while upon the bike/motorcycle then you're open carrying and it's legal.

    The problem I have with what I was told is that once I got off the phone, I looked up the law in another post on this forum.

    "750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty."

    What I was told contradicts what is written in the law (in terms of on a motorcycle). I find this odd because I was told the same thing twice by the MSP. Quite frankly, I am frustrated to the point of not wanting to look into this further because I can't get a solid, non-contradictory answer.
    All my research has show it to be illegal on a motorcycle and questionable on a bicycle. I wouldn't count on the opinion of that person. I would get something in writing from the officer in question, email something.

    I don't advise anyone without a CPL to OC on a motorcycle.
    I believe they may have been considering the wording you left out in both 750.227c & d. Both state " Except as otherwise permitted by law(open carry), a person shall not transport or possess in or upon etc, etc,etc, a firearm, OTHER THAN A PISTOL,which is loaded. Open carry of a pistol is permitted by law and the only way that is changed is if you were to enter into a vehicle as we all know,it then becomes concealed.It never becomes concealed when you are upon a vehicle such as a motorcycle or a self propelled vehicle such as a bicycle! That sounds perfectly legalistic to me in legal terms! What do you think?
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Sgt. Deasy dis write this in an email.

    "It is legal to openly carry a pistol on a bicycle. Michigan law (MCL 750.227) makes it illegal to carry a pistol in a vehicle without a CPL. Since a person rides on (not in) a bicycle, a pistol is not concealed if carried openly by the rider."

    I also received this from him.

    "Mr. Jeffs,

    I don't think the issue is whether bicycles are vehicles - I think they are. The question is whether a person carrying a visible pistol while riding a bicycle is carrying the pistol IN a vehicle as prohibited by MCL 750.227; in order to be guilty of carrying a concealed pistol, a non-CPL holder must be carrying the pistol IN the vehicle.

    The Penal Code does not define "in" so I checked a couple dictionaries and found that as an adverb 'in' generally means "on the inside" or "within." Thus, I don't think a person carrying a plainly visible pistol (e.g., housed in a hip-holster) on a bicycle - or motorcycle - is carrying the pistol in a vehicle, so they're not guilty of violating MCL 750.227. Contrast that with a person transporting a pistol inside a storage compartment attached to a bicycle or motorcycle - in that case they are carrying the pistol IN the vehicle. I think my analysis is supported by the Court's opinion in People v. Nimeth, 236 Mich. App. 616 (1999) (discussing a pistol hidden IN a motorcycle).

    Further, the purpose of MCL 750.227 "is to protect quarreling persons from being injured by an adversary who might suddenly draw and use a concealed weapon without notice." People v. Emery, 150 Mich. App. 657, 663 (1986). Charging a person on a bicycle or motorcycle would hardly be within the purpose of the statute; after all, openly carrying a pistol serves notice that the person is in possession of a pistol.

    That said, I am simply relaying our position on the matter. As I've mentioned to you before, the MSP cannot give legal opinions that bind another police agency. So, if someone is concerned about overzealous officers, they should probably play it safe and not openly carry on a bicycle or motorcycle, or they should get a Concealed Pistol License."

    Regards, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police-Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    As usual, a great response from the Sgt. Thanks Ven!

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    Venator wrote:
    Sgt. Deasy dis write this in an email.

    "It is legal to openly carry a pistol on a bicycle. Michigan law (MCL 750.227) makes it illegal to carry a pistol in a vehicle without a CPL. Since a person rides on (not in) a bicycle, a pistol is not concealed if carried openly by the rider."

    I also received this from him.

    "Mr. Jeffs,

    I don't think the issue is whether bicycles are vehicles - I think they are. The question is whether a person carrying a visible pistol while riding a bicycle is carrying the pistol IN a vehicle as prohibited by MCL 750.227; in order to be guilty of carrying a concealed pistol, a non-CPL holder must be carrying the pistol IN the vehicle.

    The Penal Code does not define "in" so I checked a couple dictionaries and found that as an adverb 'in' generally means "on the inside" or "within." Thus, I don't think a person carrying a plainly visible pistol (e.g., housed in a hip-holster) on a bicycle - or motorcycle - is carrying the pistol in a vehicle, so they're not guilty of violating MCL 750.227. Contrast that with a person transporting a pistol inside a storage compartment attached to a bicycle or motorcycle - in that case they are carrying the pistol IN the vehicle. I think my analysis is supported by the Court's opinion in People v. Nimeth, 236 Mich. App. 616 (1999) (discussing a pistol hidden IN a motorcycle).

    Further, the purpose of MCL 750.227 "is to protect quarreling persons from being injured by an adversary who might suddenly draw and use a concealed weapon without notice." People v. Emery, 150 Mich. App. 657, 663 (1986). Charging a person on a bicycle or motorcycle would hardly be within the purpose of the statute; after all, openly carrying a pistol serves notice that the person is in possession of a pistol.

    That said, I am simply relaying our position on the matter. As I've mentioned to you before, the MSP cannot give legal opinions that bind another police agency. So, if someone is concerned about overzealous officers, they should probably play it safe and not openly carry on a bicycle or motorcycle, or they should get a Concealed Pistol License."

    Regards, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police-Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    The opinion that does not bind another agency I suppose is true,if they want to be over zealous. The meaning of on or in is pretty easy to understand. Ask president Clinton(the meaning of IS). I believeall police agencies should be made aware of the MSP opinion at the very least, to educate them. As always it shouldn't be to hard to fight being arrested by overzealous officers when the meaning of on or in is so easily determined and the wording of " other than a pistol ", which I believe exempts pistols altogether, as opposed to firearms. Does that sound reasonable?
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    hamaneggs wrote:
    SNIP
    I believeall police agencies should be made aware of the MSP opinion at the very least, to educate them. As always it shouldn't be to hard to fight being arrested by overzealous officers when the meaning of on or in is so easily determined and the wording of " other than a pistol ", which I believe exempts pistols altogether, as opposed to firearms. Does that sound reasonable?
    IIRC, "other than a pistol" has been addressed here not long ago. The way I understood the meaning is that it's to redirect you to statues pertaining to the lawful carry/possession of a pistol.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    hamaneggs wrote:
    SNIP
    I believeall police agencies should be made aware of the MSP opinion at the very least, to educate them. As always it shouldn't be to hard to fight being arrested by overzealous officers when the meaning of on or in is so easily determined and the wording of " other than a pistol ", which I believe exempts pistols altogether, as opposed to firearms. Does that sound reasonable?
    IIRC, "other than a pistol" has been addressed here not long ago. The way I understood the meaning is that it's to redirect you to statues pertaining to the lawful carry/possession of a pistol.
    I have looked into this very wording and Springer is correct, there are other statutes that pertain to handguns, so that why it's worded that way.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    hamaneggs wrote:
    SNIP
    I believeall police agencies should be made aware of the MSP opinion at the very least, to educate them. As always it shouldn't be to hard to fight being arrested by overzealous officers when the meaning of on or in is so easily determined and the wording of " other than a pistol ", which I believe exempts pistols altogether, as opposed to firearms. Does that sound reasonable?
    IIRC, "other than a pistol" has been addressed here not long ago. The way I understood the meaning is that it's to redirect you to statues pertaining to the lawful carry/possession of a pistol.
    I have looked into this very wording and Springer is correct, there are other statutes that pertain to handguns, so that why it's worded that way.
    Yes, I believe a pistol carried in OC or CC is our aim. Firearms relates to long arms that are prohibited from being OCed and CCed or carried in a vehicle. I understand pistols have their own niche in the firearm laws because of their concealability and certainly their being registered, in my opinion illegaly. Iam a purist when it comes to the keeping and bearing of arms for the defense of ones life and all that he or she owns by way of possessions. All good citizens should be able to carry freely as do the bad citizens! Who deserves most to defend themselves? I believe the good citizens over the bad by way of common sense. It's just that simple to me! Who's life is more valuable to society, the good citizen or the criminal? That's a simple answer to anyone who is sane anyway!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    Technically, even Mike Cox can't make a for sure, without a doubt, no worries decision. The ONLY decision that really counts is case-law at the Michigan Supreme Court Level. Since there isn't any, well.. yeah... I know I don't want to be the test case to create some.

    Ben
    You are correct...an AG opinion does carry a large amount of weight, though. It is important to remember that, as far as the law is concerned, NOTHING is certain, rather it is a sense of "probability" of being "certain"; a court decision being more certain than an AG opinion, an AG opinion being more certain than an opinion from Officer Deasey (sp?), Officer Deasey's(sp?) opinion being perhaps more certain than the officer you meet in the 7-11, etc.

    A specific situation which you think has already been decided could be taken up the "certainty ladder"and decided contrary to a previous opinion given at a lower "level of certainty".
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

    That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.

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    hamaneggs wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Sgt. Deasy dis write this in an email.

    "It is legal to openly carry a pistol on a bicycle. Michigan law (MCL 750.227) makes it illegal to carry a pistol in a vehicle without a CPL. Since a person rides on (not in) a bicycle, a pistol is not concealed if carried openly by the rider."

    I also received this from him.

    "Mr. Jeffs,

    I don't think the issue is whether bicycles are vehicles - I think they are. The question is whether a person carrying a visible pistol while riding a bicycle is carrying the pistol IN a vehicle as prohibited by MCL 750.227; in order to be guilty of carrying a concealed pistol, a non-CPL holder must be carrying the pistol IN the vehicle.

    The Penal Code does not define "in" so I checked a couple dictionaries and found that as an adverb 'in' generally means "on the inside" or "within." Thus, I don't think a person carrying a plainly visible pistol (e.g., housed in a hip-holster) on a bicycle - or motorcycle - is carrying the pistol in a vehicle, so they're not guilty of violating MCL 750.227. Contrast that with a person transporting a pistol inside a storage compartment attached to a bicycle or motorcycle - in that case they are carrying the pistol IN the vehicle. I think my analysis is supported by the Court's opinion in People v. Nimeth, 236 Mich. App. 616 (1999) (discussing a pistol hidden IN a motorcycle).

    Further, the purpose of MCL 750.227 "is to protect quarreling persons from being injured by an adversary who might suddenly draw and use a concealed weapon without notice." People v. Emery, 150 Mich. App. 657, 663 (1986). Charging a person on a bicycle or motorcycle would hardly be within the purpose of the statute; after all, openly carrying a pistol serves notice that the person is in possession of a pistol.

    That said, I am simply relaying our position on the matter. As I've mentioned to you before, the MSP cannot give legal opinions that bind another police agency. So, if someone is concerned about overzealous officers, they should probably play it safe and not openly carry on a bicycle or motorcycle, or they should get a Concealed Pistol License."

    Regards, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police-Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    The opinion that does not bind another agency I suppose is true,if they want to be over zealous. The meaning of on or in is pretty easy to understand. Ask president Clinton(the meaning of IS). I believeall police agencies should be made aware of the MSP opinion at the very least, to educate them. As always it shouldn't be to hard to fight being arrested by overzealous officers when the meaning of on or in is so easily determined and the wording of " other than a pistol ", which I believe exempts pistols altogether, as opposed to firearms. Does that sound reasonable?
    My idea of playing it safe, as opposed to not OCing on a bike or motorcycle as SGT. Deasy recommended, is the safety of being armed in the first place! To ride unarmed and die or ride armed and live is a simple choice and that's my point. I am a purist when it comes to my right to life and I hope to do all I can to spread this absolute truth to THE PEOPLE in our nation of freedom! GOD BLESS THE U.S.!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  24. #24
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    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

    That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.
    In the concealed weaponstatuetheyjust usevehicle. With no definition. A vehicle is something that conveys people or goods overland. So by that definition a horse is a vehicle. You can't take legal definitions from one statute and apply it to others. If the term is not defined then the law generally looks at the common meaning and the dictionary's definition.

    This has all be discussed before in another thread on motorcycles.

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    [/b](2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.[size=]
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

    That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.
    In the concealed weaponstatuetheyjust usevehicle. With no definition. A vehicle is something that conveys people or goods overland. So by that definition a horse is a vehicle. You can't take legal definitions from one statute and apply it to others. If the term is not defined then the law generally looks at the common meaning and the dictionary's definition.

    This has all be discussed before in another thread on motorcycles.

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.[size=]
    I was mistaken about the wording being 'motor vehicle'.


    "Six states -- AZ, CA, IA, IL, IN, MI, NY -- give bicycles the rights and responsibilities (or rights and obligations) of vehicles, but exclude bicycles as vehicles in the code."

    Could have changed since 1996, but cited from: http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/vehicle.htm, Also Section 257.4 defines bicycle.

    And for the horses, Section 500.3114. and Section 67.1 Both imply that horses, standing alone are not vehicles. But perhaps if I was in or on a cart, that Would be a vehicle.

    This is just what i have researched, and shouldn't be taken as fact.

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