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OC Allowed on Motorcycles and Bicycles

DrTodd

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PilotPTK wrote:
Technically, even Mike Cox can't make a for sure, without a doubt, no worries decision. The ONLY decision that really counts is case-law at the Michigan Supreme Court Level. Since there isn't any, well.. yeah... I know I don't want to be the test case to create some.

Ben
You are correct...an AG opinion does carry a large amount of weight, though. It is important to remember that, as far as the law is concerned, NOTHING is certain, rather it is a sense of "probability" of being "certain"; a court decision being more certain than an AG opinion, an AG opinion being more certain than an opinion from Officer Deasey (sp?), Officer Deasey's(sp?) opinion being perhaps more certain than the officer you meet in the 7-11, etc.

A specific situation which you think has already been decided could be taken up the "certainty ladder"and decided contrary to a previous opinion given at a lower "level of certainty".
 

BreakingTheMold

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I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.
 

Haman J.T.

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hamaneggs wrote:
Venator wrote:
Sgt. Deasy dis write this in an email.

"It is legal to openly carry a pistol on a bicycle. Michigan law (MCL 750.227) makes it illegal to carry a pistol in a vehicle without a CPL. Since a person rides on (not in) a bicycle, a pistol is not concealed if carried openly by the rider."

I also received this from him.

"Mr. Jeffs,

I don't think the issue is whether bicycles are vehicles - I think they are. The question is whether a person carrying a visible pistol while riding a bicycle is carrying the pistol IN a vehicle as prohibited by MCL 750.227; in order to be guilty of carrying a concealed pistol, a non-CPL holder must be carrying the pistol IN the vehicle.

The Penal Code does not define "in" so I checked a couple dictionaries and found that as an adverb 'in' generally means "on the inside" or "within." Thus, I don't think a person carrying a plainly visible pistol (e.g., housed in a hip-holster) on a bicycle - or motorcycle - is carrying the pistol in a vehicle, so they're not guilty of violating MCL 750.227. Contrast that with a person transporting a pistol inside a storage compartment attached to a bicycle or motorcycle - in that case they are carrying the pistol IN the vehicle. I think my analysis is supported by the Court's opinion in People v. Nimeth, 236 Mich. App. 616 (1999) (discussing a pistol hidden IN a motorcycle).

Further, the purpose of MCL 750.227 "is to protect quarreling persons from being injured by an adversary who might suddenly draw and use a concealed weapon without notice." People v. Emery, 150 Mich. App. 657, 663 (1986). Charging a person on a bicycle or motorcycle would hardly be within the purpose of the statute; after all, openly carrying a pistol serves notice that the person is in possession of a pistol.

That said, I am simply relaying our position on the matter. As I've mentioned to you before, the MSP cannot give legal opinions that bind another police agency. So, if someone is concerned about overzealous officers, they should probably play it safe and not openly carry on a bicycle or motorcycle, or they should get a Concealed Pistol License."

Regards, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police-Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
The opinion that does not bind another agency I suppose is true,if they want to be over zealous. The meaning of on or in is pretty easy to understand. Ask president Clinton(the meaning of IS). I believeall police agencies should be made aware of the MSP opinion at the very least, to educate them. As always it shouldn't be to hard to fight being arrested by overzealous officers when the meaning of on or in is so easily determined and the wording of " other than a pistol ", which I believe exempts pistols altogether, as opposed to firearms. Does that sound reasonable?
My idea of playing it safe, as opposed to not OCing on a bike or motorcycle as SGT. Deasy recommended, is the safety of being armed in the first place! To ride unarmed and die or ride armed and live is a simple choice and that's my point. I am a purist when it comes to my right to life and I hope to do all I can to spread this absolute truth to THE PEOPLE in our nation of freedom! GOD BLESS THE U.S.!
 

Venator

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BreakingTheMold wrote:
I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.

In the concealed weaponstatuetheyjust usevehicle. With no definition. A vehicle is something that conveys people or goods overland. So by that definition a horse is a vehicle. You can't take legal definitions from one statute and apply it to others. If the term is not defined then the law generally looks at the common meaning and the dictionary's definition.

This has all be discussed before in another thread on motorcycles.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
[/b](2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.[size=]
 

BreakingTheMold

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Venator wrote:
BreakingTheMold wrote:
I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.

In the concealed weaponstatuetheyjust usevehicle. With no definition. A vehicle is something that conveys people or goods overland. So by that definition a horse is a vehicle. You can't take legal definitions from one statute and apply it to others. If the term is not defined then the law generally looks at the common meaning and the dictionary's definition.

This has all be discussed before in another thread on motorcycles.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.[size=]
I was mistaken about the wording being 'motor vehicle'.


"Six states -- AZ, CA, IA, IL, IN, MI, NY -- give bicycles the rights and responsibilities (or rights and obligations) of vehicles, but exclude bicycles as vehicles in the code."

Could have changed since 1996, but cited from: http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/vehicle.htm, Also Section 257.4 defines bicycle.

And for the horses, Section 500.3114. and Section 67.1 Both imply that horses, standing alone are not vehicles. But perhaps if I was in or on a cart, that Would be a vehicle.

This is just what i have researched, and shouldn't be taken as fact.
 

Venator

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BreakingTheMold wrote:
Venator wrote:
BreakingTheMold wrote:
I know you can OC on a horse, same as you can on a bicycle. It'll be a sad, sad day when I get pulled over on my horse for OCing.

That statue says "motor vehicle" by name. So that makes me think every thing from a bike to a rickshaw is OK to OC in.

In the concealed weaponstatuetheyjust usevehicle. With no definition. A vehicle is something that conveys people or goods overland. So by that definition a horse is a vehicle. You can't take legal definitions from one statute and apply it to others. If the term is not defined then the law generally looks at the common meaning and the dictionary's definition.

This has all be discussed before in another thread on motorcycles.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.[size=]
I was mistaken about the wording being 'motor vehicle'.


"Six states -- AZ, CA, IA, IL, IN, MI, NY -- give bicycles the rights and responsibilities (or rights and obligations) of vehicles, but exclude bicycles as vehicles in the code."

Could have changed since 1996, but cited from: http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/vehicle.htm, Also Section 257.4 defines bicycle.

And for the horses, Section 500.3114. and Section 67.1 Both imply that horses, standing alone are not vehicles. But perhaps if I was in or on a cart, that Would be a vehicle.

This is just what i have researched, and shouldn't be taken as fact.

Again you can't take a definition from one statute and apply it to another. As I said before, if it's not defined in the statute that the word is used in then you have to go to the dictionary.

Having said that, you could try and use those other statutes in a defense, but they can be ignored. I don't think it's likely someone would be charged with CCW while OCing on a horse, but they have been on a motorcycle. I'm not aware of any cases in regards to bicycles.
 

BreakingTheMold

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I see, what you were saying. Until there is a case to cite, they will use the definition form the dictionary? I was looking more into it then i should have.

I will look more into it. As for motorcycles, I could understand the need for a CPL.

But livery and human powered 'vehicles' are still really in the Grey zone.
 

zigziggityzoo

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BreakingTheMold wrote:
I see, what you were saying. Until there is a case to cite, they will use the definition form the dictionary? I was looking more into it then i should have.

I will look more into it. As for motorcycles, I could understand the need for a CPL.

But livery and human powered 'vehicles' are still really in the Grey zone.

vehicle |ˈvēəkəl; ˈvēˌhikəl|
noun
1 a thing used for transporting people or goods, esp. on land, such as a car, truck, or cart.

Broad definition.

By the way, I know for a fact people have been convicted of DUI for riding a horse drunk.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17953259/
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5htIatAw-fjcy5V3J0-rxCq-VjW7AD97TPDEG0

(though, I don't know if it's illegal in MI, just stating what I've seen in news)
 

T Vance

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I have heard of people getting DUI's while riding bicycles drunk so I would assume the same would go for OCing on a bike. I remember watching some special on Dateline, or Nightline, or one of those types of shows over 10 years ago about people riding bikes wasted and it being a problem. But everything is a problem with those types of shows.

Here are a few links I found while quickly looking...

http://www.topgundui.com/myles-berman-ohio/drunk-driving-on-a-bicycle/



http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving

"In some places, driving a motorless vehicle such as a bicycle while drunk is also illegal."



http://www.wisegeek.com/can-you-really-get-a-dui-on-a-horse-or-bicycle.htm
 

Venator

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springerdave wrote:
The key word here I think is IN. If you were to rideIN a horse;), then you would be conceled, as IN a car or truck. If you were ON a horse, with a pistol in an exposed holster, it would not appear to be conceled.:uhoh:springerdave.

You are right the key word is "in". But a Michiganappeals court did define it to mean in or on in a CCW case in regards to a motorcycle. That case has been posted on this site and you can read the part where they discuss in and on to death.

The gist was in can mean on and on can mean in.
 

Venator

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springerdave wrote:
Is that the case where one of the brothers concealed a pistol on the engine of the motorcycle? If it is , the pistol was not in plain sight, and might be concidered IN the motorcycle.My ? and $.02.springerdave.

Yes the gun was between the seat and gas tank, it was partially open and partially concealed. But the Appeal Court looked atwhat is/was meant by in/on in their decision. I think that every case is different, but this Appeals case would be brought up by the prosecution and it may carry weight in determiningto press charges and might influence a jury if it went to trial.

That's why in my opinion it's a gray area. The MSP said it's okay to OC on a motorcycle and bicycle without a CPL, but that opinion only applies to the MSP. Other departments may take a different view.
 

bigdaddyj

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I talked to someone at the firearms records unit today, although her name escapes me right now. She had told me that Yes it is legaly to open carry on a motorcycle, although she's not sure if it has to be unloaded.:banghead: She then told me that as soon as it goes into a compartment of the bike it is then classified as concealed and I could be in for a world of trouble. So I asked her, What if I was legally transporting the gun in a saddle bag, seperate form the bullets, and not easily accessible by my or a passenger? She then told me it's still classified as concealed. I am waiting to hear back from her about the gun needing to be unloaded. I will also be asking her to fax me the info if it is available.
 

CoonDog

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bigdaddyj wrote:
someone at the firearms records unit
IMO, this person's opinion is not worth what you paid for it. In fact, it's possibly downright dangerous as it carries no authority of law and you'll bear the liability of whatever penalty is assigned by the local LEO dept. and argues by the PA.

Absent case law on the topic, it would behoove bikers to have an AG opinion that defines defines the trio of carry, possession, and transport for a motorcycle.
 

bigdaddyj

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I just got off the phone with the Prosecuting attorney's office and I asked them if it was legal to open carry on a motorcycle and the refered me to the CCW board. I am waiting for them to call me back as the lady that handles this is at lunch. As soon as she calls me back I will post the answer.
 
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