Knife Carry Laws

imported post

understood.

it was worth a shot. im just very interested in having friends in law enforcement who are understanding of our cause. thank you for your honest response.

imported post

bigtoe416 wrote:

Is it safe to say that if you purchased your knife through a reputable California company that the knife wouldn't be classified as a switch blade under this code's definition? I have a Benchmade Griptillian and it can be flicked open without touching the thumb stud although you have to whip your wrist back and forth like a moron a bunch of times at high speed to get it to happen. I can also get it to open without touching the thumb stud by disengaging the locking mechanism and then flicking my wrist. Would this be classified as a switch blade from your experience?

Click to expand...

No. Keep in mind a recent case that changed the definition for illegal knives. It used to be case law that a folder with any propensity to stay closed is exempt, even if it could be flicked open. A 2008 case changed this.

The current standard is: if it can be opened without touching the blade (or thumb stud attached directly to the blade) then it is either a switch blade or gravity knife. If said knife is over 1.999 inches ("two or more inches").

Theoretically, even a knife you are incapable of opening in such a manner could be a switch blade if the prosecution is able to get someone who can do it. (I demonstrated this to my wife with one of her folders. She couldn't get it to open like a "gravity knife" despite 5 minutes of trying. I got it on my 3rd try. Tightening the screw "fixed" this.)

My suggestion is to "fix" any knives you have that aren't extremely resistant to opening. IMO it's just not worth risking it, especially if you're "on the radar" as a 2A activist/supporter.

imported post

CaCop wrote:

A bit of info on "switch blades." Almost every swap meet in the Inland Empire sales small folding knifes that don't lock closed. The stay closed but don't have a locking mechanism. If the blade is over 2 1/2 inches long, and the blade opens with the flick of your wrist, it is illegal (misd). P.C. 653 (k). I find these knifes on people all the time.

Click to expand...

The above length is wrong. I hope this is simply an error on your part, or perhaps your departmental policy to give people a 1/2" gray area. (A sound idea when prosecuting such a silly law.)

Any switchblade/gravity knife with a blade of "two or more inches" is illegal.

1.999 inches = legal.
2.000 inches = misemeanor.

At the last gun show I attended, there was a table where the guy was selling switchblades, and had a big sign advertising it. The company he was selling for guarantees all their switchblades will not exceed 1.999 inches. One of their blades was the subject of an unsuccessfully prosecution in CA. The crime lab measured it in at 1.998 inches. (Gotta love precision manufacturing equipment.)

imported post

CA_Libertarian wrote:

CaCop wrote:

A bit of info on "switch blades." Almost every swap meet in the Inland Empire sales small folding knifes that don't lock closed. The stay closed but don't have a locking mechanism. If the blade is over 2 1/2 inches long, and the blade opens with the flick of your wrist, it is illegal (misd). P.C. 653 (k). I find these knifes on people all the time.

Click to expand...

The above length is wrong. I hope this is simply an error on your part, or perhaps your departmental policy to give people a 1/2" gray area. (A sound idea when prosecuting such a silly law.)

Any switchblade/gravity knife with a blade of "two or more inches" is illegal.

1.999 inches = legal.
2.000 inches = misemeanor.

At the last gun show I attended, there was a table where the guy was selling switchblades, and had a big sign advertising it. The company he was selling for guarantees all their switchblades will not exceed 1.999 inches. One of their blades was the subject of an unsuccessfully prosecution in CA. The crime lab measured it in at 1.998 inches. (Gotta love precision manufacturing equipment.)

Click to expand...

You guys are right. Sorry I didn't read 653k before stating 2 1/2 inches. It is 2 inches. When you are a rookie you tend to read the codes before using or quoting them. As time goes on you get comfortable with common codes (and somewhat senile) and sometimes make mistakes because you don't check them. It doesn't matter anyway...I can honestly say that I can't remember ever arresting anyone for this ridiculous violation.

imported post

Okay, so my basic understanding here is that we are all in agreeance that we can carry folders under 2 inches that don't flick open? Am I right?

This is horrible. I just want to carry a knife...why does it have to be so confusing?

imported post

If you plan on carrying on K-12 campuses, sure, that's fine.

imported post

No, I don't...so...?

imported post

TheWarrior wrote:

Okay, so my basic understanding here is that we are all in agreeance that we can carry folders under 2 inches that don't flick open? Am I right?

This is horrible. I just want to carry a knife...why does it have to be so confusing?

Click to expand...

ANY knife under 2" is legal within the PC. The PC really only addresses belt buckle knives, gravity knives, switchblades, concealed fixed blades, and possession on school grounds. Openly carried fixed blades are not addressed, feel free to carry your sword if you want to have an interesting day. PC also does not generally limit the size of folders (whether concealed or openly carried).

Concealed fixed 1.99 inches "dirk or dagger" = OK
Switchblade 1.99 inches = OK

Check local laws for further restrictions.

imported post

CA_Libertarian wrote:

TheWarrior wrote:

Okay, so my basic understanding here is that we are all in agreeance that we can carry folders under 2 inches that don't flick open? Am I right?

This is horrible. I just want to carry a knife...why does it have to be so confusing?

Click to expand...

ANY knife under 2" is legal within the PC. The PC really only addresses belt buckle knives, gravity knives, switchblades, concealed fixed blades, and possession on school grounds. Openly carried fixed blades are not addressed, feel free to carry your sword if you want to have an interesting day. PC also does not generally limit the size of folders (whether concealed or openly carried).

Concealed fixed 1.99 inches "dirk or dagger" = OK
Switchblade 1.99 inches = OK

Check local laws for further restrictions.

Click to expand...

If you want to carry a knife in a K-12 School it must meet the following specifications:

1. Must be under 2.5 inches in length

2. Cannot be a folding knife with a locking blade

3. If a fixed blade under 2.5 inches, it MUST NOT be concealed.

626.10. (a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as
defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this
state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests
or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in
assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this
state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his
or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick,
knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a
blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a
taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5,
any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a
pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO 2 pressure, or spring
action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any
public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any
of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense,
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year,
or by imprisonment in the state prison.

imported post

I'm sorry if I'm a little dense here but the very last thing I need is to be arrested and charged, so I will summarize my understanding of the knife laws and see if you guys think I'm right?

If it's a folder, it cannot flick openand has to be under 2 inches most of the time. Can beCC'd or OC'd. (What about thumb studs?)

For an FB, it must be OC'd but there is no real length limit.

This is not necessarily what I pulled from this post but what I hear most consistently. I hope someone can either affirm it or contradict it.

Cheers!

Spencer

imported post

TheWarrior wrote:

I'm sorry if I'm a little dense here but the very last thing I need is to be arrested and charged, so I will summarize my understanding of the knife laws and see if you guys think I'm right?

If it's a folder, it cannot flick openand has to be under 2 inches most of the time. Can beCC'd or OC'd. (What about thumb studs?)

For an FB, it must be OC'd but there is no real length limit.

This is not necessarily what I pulled from this post but what I hear most consistently. I hope someone can either affirm it or contradict it.

Cheers!

Spencer

Click to expand...

I will try to make this as plain as possible.

1. State laws say that you can carry aFixed Blade knife openly.

2. State laws say that you can carry a folding knife either openly or concealed.

3. State laws say it can't be a switchblade, unless it is under 2" in length.

4. Case law says is can't open with a flick of the wrist, or it will be considered a switchblade.

These are the basic STATE level rules on knives. There are a lot of subcategories like carrying in a school that will screw you up if you don't understand the restrictions. READ THE LAWS UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND THEM YOURSELF.

LOCAL LAWS VARY FROM COUNTY TO COUNTY AND FROM CITY TO CITY, STUDY YOUR OWN LOCAL LAWS AS YOU CAN WALK 10 FEET, CROSS A BOUNDARYAND THE LAW WILL BE DIFFERENT.

imported post

Only has to be 2 inches or less if it's an automatic ("switchblade") or "gravity knife".

Edit: Decoligny beat me to it.

imported post

CaCop wrote:

[/ SNIP]

but some of the threats I have received have made me decide to stay anonymous. I have also read old threads where other Cops where threatened a lot worse than I was.

Click to expand...

That's sad to hear. I'd wager that any threats, when forwarded to Mike or John would result in a permanent ban for the offender.

imported post

Decoligny wrote:

TheWarrior wrote:

I'm sorry if I'm a little dense here but the very last thing I need is to be arrested and charged, so I will summarize my understanding of the knife laws and see if you guys think I'm right?

If it's a folder, it cannot flick openand has to be under 2 inches most of the time. Can beCC'd or OC'd. (What about thumb studs?)

For an FB, it must be OC'd but there is no real length limit.

This is not necessarily what I pulled from this post but what I hear most consistently. I hope someone can either affirm it or contradict it.

Cheers!

Spencer

Click to expand...

I will try to make this as plain as possible.

1. State laws say that you can carry aFixed Blade knife openly.

2. State laws say that you can carry a folding knife either openly or concealed.

3. State laws say it can't be a switchblade, unless it is under 2" in length.

4. Case law says is can't open with a flick of the wrist, or it will be considered a switchblade.

These are the basic STATE level rules on knives. There are a lot of subcategories like carrying in a school that will screw you up if you don't understand the restrictions. READ THE LAWS UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND THEM YOURSELF.

LOCAL LAWS VARY FROM COUNTY TO COUNTY AND FROM CITY TO CITY, STUDY YOUR OWN LOCAL LAWS AS YOU CAN WALK 10 FEET, CROSS A BOUNDARYAND THE LAW WILL BE DIFFERENT.

Click to expand...

Ok, sorry. That was a good summary, so thank you. Makes sense out of the fifty friggin' million different summaries Ihear just for California...

imported post

Took me a bit to find it but at the bottom of this post is a legislative intent letter that clarifies the opening with a flick of the wrist. If there is a mechanism the provides any measure of resistance from opening, you are good to go. This includes the obvious detents but also liner locks that press against the blade when in the closed position. The memo was written specifically so that the srg with the over developed wrist muscles couldn't give it the flick of its life and throw you in jail.

From: http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html
One of the best summaries of CA knife laws out there BTW

Published in the July 18, 2001 edition of the Senate Daily Journal on page 2070.
DRAFT - LETTER TO THE SENATE DAILY JOURNAL

July 5, 2001

Mr. Gregory Schmidt
Secretary of the Senate

Dear Greg:

The purpose of this letter is to express the Legislature’s intent in enacting my SB 274, which makes amendments to Penal Code Section 653k.

Section 653k makes it a misdemeanor to make, sell or possess upon one’s person a switchblade in California. The statute was enacted in 1957 and provides a length definition of a switchblade knife. In 1996, AB 3314 (Ch. 1054) an exemption was created for one-handed folding knives. Recently, there has been concern that the language of the exemption is broadly read to apply to knives that are essentially switchblades, but are designed to fall under the language of the exemption.

In order to ensure that only legitimate one-handed opening knives are covered, SB 274 narrows the language to only allow knives to fall under the exemption from the switchblade law if that one-handed opening knife contains a detent or similar mechanism. Such mechanisms ensure there is a measure of resistance (no matter how slight) that prevents the knife from being easily opened with a flick of the wrist. Moreover, a detent or other mechanism is prudent and a matter of public safety as it will ensure that a blade will not inadvertently come open.

Although some one-handed opening knives can be opened with a strong flick of the wrist, so long as they contact a detent or similar mechanism that provides some resistance to opening the knife, then the exemption is triggered. These knives serve an important utility to many knife users, as well as firefighters, EMT personnel, hunters, fishermen, and others utilize one-handed opening knives.

The exemption created in 1996 was designed to decriminalize the legitimate use of these extremely functional tools by law-abiding citizens. SB 274 is not intended to interfere with those knife owners and users. The amendments to Section 653k accomplish this important purpose by establishing more objective criteria for determining whether a knife meets the intended exemption to the switchblade law.

Sincerely,
BETTY KARNETTE
Senator, 27th District

imported post

The previous "detent" criteria was revised last year (see In Re Angel R. (2008) 163 Cal. App. 4th 905).

Forum discussion found here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=17619&forum_id=12

I'm sorry to say that if the knife can be opened without touching the blade, then it is a "switchblade". If same knife is 2.00" or more, then you may have legal problems.

My biggest concern (as mentioned in the above aforementioned thread) is, just who's 'flip of the wrist' will the court consider? Maybe you can't do it, and maybe you honestly believe it can't be done... but what if the DA brings in an 'expert witness' who has a knack for flipping open knives?

imported post

CA_Libertarian wrote:

The previous "detent" criteria was revised last year (see In Re Angel R. (2008) 163 Cal. App. 4th 905).

Forum discussion found here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=17619&forum_id=12

I'm sorry to say that if the knife can be opened without touching the blade, then it is a "switchblade". If same knife is 2.00" or more, then you may have legal problems.

My biggest concern (as mentioned in the above aforementioned thread) is, just who's 'flip of the wrist' will the court consider? Maybe you can't do it, and maybe you honestly believe it can't be done... but what if the DA brings in an 'expert witness' who has a knack for flipping open knives?

Click to expand...

While on the face of the case it appears to rule that the detent only applies if it functions to prevent flicking open, it is carefully worded to ignore the fact that if the blade can be opened with thumb pressure on the blade, the detent exception does apply. The judge simply said that since he opened it with the flick of a wrist it was irrelevant. He was careful to mention the presence of a detent but to not mention if the blade had a thumb stud. The judge wanted the charge to stick so he crafted a double talk opinion to do so. It is unfortunate that it wasn't appealed. This is just another reason to avoid :dude: like the plague.

imported post

inbox485 wrote:

CA_Libertarian wrote:

The previous "detent" criteria was revised last year (see In Re Angel R. (2008) 163 Cal. App. 4th 905).

Forum discussion found here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=17619&forum_id=12

I'm sorry to say that if the knife can be opened without touching the blade, then it is a "switchblade". If same knife is 2.00" or more, then you may have legal problems.

My biggest concern (as mentioned in the above aforementioned thread) is, just who's 'flip of the wrist' will the court consider? Maybe you can't do it, and maybe you honestly believe it can't be done... but what if the DA brings in an 'expert witness' who has a knack for flipping open knives?

Click to expand...

While on the face of the case it appears to rule that the detent only applies if it functions to prevent flicking open, it is carefully worded to ignore the fact that if the blade can be opened with thumb pressure on the blade, the detent exception does apply. The judge simply said that since he opened it with the flick of a wrist it was irrelevant. He was careful to mention the presence of a detent but to not mention if the blade had a thumb stud. The judge wanted the charge to stick so he crafted a double talk opinion to do so. It is unfortunate that it wasn't appealed. This is just another reason to avoid :dude: like the plague.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your interpretation of the case. The knife in question was taken from the subject after he was in custody, and as far as this case is concerned, at no time did he flick the knife open.

Further, your assertion that "if the blade can be opened with thumb pressure on the blade, the detent exception does apply." I didn't see this anywhere in the case.

The bottom line is this: If it can be opened with the flip of the wrist or the push of a button, then it's a switchblade. Detent or not.

I hope you don't take my tone the wrong way, but giving bad advice can lead to bad things happening. I don't intend to offend you, I just want to make it very clear that people should read the case themselves before bringing/carrying knives in CA.

imported post

CA_Libertarian wrote:

inbox485 wrote:

CA_Libertarian wrote:

The previous "detent" criteria was revised last year (see In Re Angel R. (2008) 163 Cal. App. 4th 905).

Forum discussion found here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=17619&forum_id=12

I'm sorry to say that if the knife can be opened without touching the blade, then it is a "switchblade". If same knife is 2.00" or more, then you may have legal problems.

My biggest concern (as mentioned in the above aforementioned thread) is, just who's 'flip of the wrist' will the court consider? Maybe you can't do it, and maybe you honestly believe it can't be done... but what if the DA brings in an 'expert witness' who has a knack for flipping open knives?

Click to expand...

While on the face of the case it appears to rule that the detent only applies if it functions to prevent flicking open, it is carefully worded to ignore the fact that if the blade can be opened with thumb pressure on the blade, the detent exception does apply. The judge simply said that since he opened it with the flick of a wrist it was irrelevant. He was careful to mention the presence of a detent but to not mention if the blade had a thumb stud. The judge wanted the charge to stick so he crafted a double talk opinion to do so. It is unfortunate that it wasn't appealed. This is just another reason to avoid :dude: like the plague.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your interpretation of the case. The knife in question was taken from the subject after he was in custody, and as far as this case is concerned, at no time did he flick the knife open.

Further, your assertion that "if the blade can be opened with thumb pressure on the blade, the detent exception does apply." I didn't see this anywhere in the case.

The bottom line is this: If it can be opened with the flip of the wrist or the push of a button, then it's a switchblade. Detent or not.

I hope you don't take my tone the wrong way, but giving bad advice can lead to bad things happening. I don't intend to offend you, I just want to make it very clear that people should read the case themselves before bringing/carrying knives in CA.

Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying. No offense taken. If you interpreted it that way others could have also. It wasn't worded clearly. My point was that the ruling left a hole. I didn't mean to imply that the hole left in the ruling was part of the ruling.

I did notice in the description of how the judge opened the knife, he said he held it hinge facing down, and lowered his hand and the knife came open. What do you make of that? Would whipping your hand to open the knife fall under this description?

imported post

I won't explain exactly how this could be abused, as I don't want to give anybody ideas. (We do have enemies, and some of them would jump at the chance to exploit bad case law.)

All I'll say is that carrying a folding knife that isn't VERY hard to flip open is above my risk tolerance. I advise everybody to tighten their folders as tight as they can, or carry an exposed fixed blade.