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Thread: P O L L __ NBC __ IN GOD WE TRUST __ REMOVED ?

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Some might think this question is off topic but its not. If the secular atheist left wing kooks get their way and completely remove god from every part of the government we run the risk of losing our unalienable rights. Think about it, the Bill of Rights doesn't GIVE us rights, it simply voices the rights that are bestowed upon us by God. From the declaration of Independence Jefferson spoke of these unalienable rights and they were voice in the Bill of Rights.

    If our natural rights are bestowed upon us by a god that the government refuses to acknowledge (the left wing kooks ultimate goal) then the very rights that we have been bestowed with shall cease to be recognized. Then true tyranny begins.

    For want of a shoe the kingdom was lost...

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    Prophet wrote:
    Some might think this question is off topic but its not. If the secular atheist left wing kooks get their way and completely remove god from every part of the government we run the risk of losing our unalienable rights.

    Oh the irony...



    Something about, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...

    How would you feel if the money said "In Alah We Trust" or "In Budda We Trust" or "In Ourselves We Trust"?

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    Jefferson strongly supported the separation of church and state....

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Prophet wrote:
    If the secular atheist .....
    Hey, Just for the record, I happen to be a "seclar atheist" and proud of it.

    The Bill of Rights doesn't depend on anyone being granted rights by a supreme being. Our rights areHUMAN RIGHTS. I don't have tobelieve in a god to believe that all people, regardless of gender, race or even nationality, have certain basic human rights which are well articulated in the BoRs.Freedom to assemble, petition government, worship (or not worship), freedom to be secure inyour home with your property and, of course, the freedom to own weapons to defend yourself are all rights anyone should be expected to have no mater who you are, where you live and what you believe in.
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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    AWDstylez wrote:

    *

    Oh the irony...

    *

    Something about, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...

    How would you feel if the money said "In Alah We Trust" or "In Budda We Trust" or "In Ourselves We Trust"?
    Who says it doesn't? It doesn't say "In Christ we Trust" or "In the Christian God we Trust". It says "In God We Trust". Allah is just another name for God in a different language. Buddha was a man and Buddhism is a belief in the nature of suffering to achieve enlightenment, so Buddhist who don't believe in god can view IGWT as In suffering we trust. And so on with Shinto-ists, Mormons, Wiccans etc.

    And what do Atheists really care? If they don't believe in god then tough, though the minority may be protected they do not have the right to subjugate the majority.

    You are correct, congress shall make no law establishing a religion. And if the money said, in the pope we trust, or in Buddha we trust then that is establishing a religion. Having faith in a Supernatural being isn't a religion...its faith and they are completely different things. If one would follow your thought pattern then the Big Bang theory or Evolution shouldn't be taught in schools because that is the sanctioning of a scientific religion.

    You see AWD, you wish to challenge my assertion by thinking that I am some xenophobic bible thumper, hell, you even assume that i am a judeo-christian and maybe even an evangelical from the right...nothing could be farther from the truth. But I do believe that our rights were bestowed upon us by some higher power and I will not stand silent while the belief is stepped on.

    Brad Corwin: Jefferson strongly supported the separation of church and state....
    True...but he didn't support separation of church FROM state. Else nowhere in his writings would he have included any reference to a Natural God, Creator etc. that bestowed anything like that. He was against the National Church of America. A church where you HAD to belong to it and any other type of worship was punished. That is what jefferson was against. God is a universal term and can be applied to many religions and simply because it is printed on our money does not force non-believers into becoming believers.

    As for you Yale:
    don't have to believe in a god to believe that all people, regardless of gender, race or even nationality, have certain basic human rights which are well articulated in the BoRs. Freedom to assemble, petition government, worship (or not worship), freedom to be secure in your home with your property and, of course, the freedom to own weapons to defend yourself are all rights anyone should be expected to have no mater who you are, where you live and what you believe in.
    Any right granted by the goodness of man can quickly be taken by the basest of man. The First and Second amendment rights not bestowed by a higher power? Then they were bestowed by man and can quickly be scratched out by man. But then we cry out "Those are our unalienable rights" and we are replied with "Men over two hundred years ago wrote these rights and they were wrong, times have changed and you no longer have these rights".

    Your belief or non-belief is of no concern of mine. Much like the war protestor who still lives in freedom because of the soldier, so do non-believers garner the rights bestowed upon all by the creator.

    I'll place my sacrosanct second amendment rights in god's hands instead of Barack Obama's.

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    First off there is no such thing as a "god given" right. No one and no thing can "give" you a right. Rights are made/seized/taken by those with strength/will enough to make/seize/take them. The "divine right of kings" was "given" to those who were bloody minded and strong enough to take it. The "constitutional rights" we claim were taken by our bloody minded and violent ancestors who killed believers in the "divine right of kings". Forget that YOU must take and hold your rights at your peril because god won't be there to give you justice when YOU lose your rights.

    Those damned, pot smoking pacifist hippies you denounce are actually seizing the rights you say the soldiers gave them. Many of them have willingly caught a police stick with their heads to ensure that they can say what they want to say. When was the last time you invited the "Man" to go upside your head just to prove your point.

    As for whether god belongs in our government or on our money, I say no. If you need an external invisible friend to remind you to follow the rules of your tribe, I pity you. If you have internalized the rules of acceptable behavior, by all means, bring your skills to bear but if you want me to believe in the inherent rightness of your invisible friend, pound sand.

    snip... Having faith in a Supernatural being isn't a religion...its faith and they are completely different things. If one would follow your thought pattern then the Big Bang theory or Evolution shouldn't be taught in schools because that is the sanctioning of a scientific religion. ...end snip

    Religion - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
    An institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
    Source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    Theologians and astrologers can't point a big camera at the heavens and show me a snap shot of the origin of the universe. Astronomers and physicists can. Theologians and creation scientists can't hand me a series of bone shaped rocks and show me a line of critters that build on the successes of their forebears. Paleontologists, Geologists and anthropologists can. Religion/faith demand that I accept someone's say so just because it is written in an old book but without any tangible, hold it in my hand kind of proof. (No, some saint's knuckle bones in a moldy old church don't count.) Science demands that every claim be proved and that the proofs be repeatable. Trying to equate science and religion in order to defend religion is akin to pointing the finger at your buddy and saying "Drunk? I'm not a drunk. If you want a drunk, there's your drunk." The argument is emotionally satisfying but doesn't hold much water.

    Not all "secular atheists" are left wing kooks. A lot of us "secular humanists" (your god has no place in my definition of myself) are more libertarian (believing in the freedom of man) than even the staunchest of your traditional right thinking "conservatives".

    As the Prophet Heinlein, peace and full beer steins be upon him, reminds us, "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child." and "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh."

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    They are natural rights because humans naturally desire them. They aren't given to you by anyone or anything, but governments and others often try to take them away.

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    grumpycoconut wrote:
    First off there is no such thing as a "god given" right. No one and no thing can "give" you a right. Rights are made/seized/taken by those with strength/will enough to make/seize/take them. The "divine right of kings" was "given" to those who were bloody minded and strong enough to take it. The "constitutional rights" we claim were taken by our bloody minded and violent ancestors who killed believers in the "divine right of kings". Forget that YOU must take and hold your rights at your peril because god won't be there to give you justice when YOU lose your rights.

    Those damned, pot smoking pacifist hippies you denounce are actually seizing the rights you say the soldiers gave them. Many of them have willingly caught a police stick with their heads to ensure that they can say what they want to say. When was the last time you invited the "Man" to go upside your head just to prove your point.

    As for whether god belongs in our government or on our money, I say no. If you need an external invisible friend to remind you to follow the rules of your tribe, I pity you. If you have internalized the rules of acceptable behavior, by all means, bring your skills to bear but if you want me to believe in the inherent rightness of your invisible friend, pound sand.

    snip... Having faith in a Supernatural being isn't a religion...its faith and they are completely different things. If one would follow your thought pattern then the Big Bang theory or Evolution shouldn't be taught in schools because that is the sanctioning of a scientific religion. ...end snip

    Religion - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
    An institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
    Source: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    Theologians and astrologers can't point a big camera at the heavens and show me a snap shot of the origin of the universe. Astronomers and physicists can. Theologians and creation scientists can't hand me a series of bone shaped rocks and show me a line of critters that build on the successes of their forebears. Paleontologists, Geologists and anthropologists can. Religion/faith demand that I accept someone's say so just because it is written in an old book but without any tangible, hold it in my hand kind of proof. (No, some saint's knuckle bones in a moldy old church don't count.) Science demands that every claim be proved and that the proofs be repeatable. Trying to equate science and religion in order to defend religion is akin to pointing the finger at your buddy and saying "Drunk? I'm not a drunk. If you want a drunk, there's your drunk." The argument is emotionally satisfying but doesn't hold much water.

    Not all "secular atheists" are left wing kooks. A lot of us "secular humanists" (your god has no place in my definition of myself) are more libertarian (believing in the freedom of man) than even the staunchest of your traditional right thinking "conservatives".

    As the Prophet Heinlein, peace and full beer steins be upon him, reminds us, "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child." and "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh."
    Hey GC...... I just checked with God and he says you STILL haven't convinced him that the doesn't exist. He said you will need to be a whole lot more convincing. He also said that he would remind you of this conversation when you stand before him on judgement day.

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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    They are natural rights because humans naturally desire them. They aren't given to you by anyone or anything, but governments often try to take them away.
    "They are not given to you by anyone or anything" Now THAT is precious!

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    Off Topic Thread.

    From the forum rules:

    NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. Please police your own posts before posting them and help keep OCDO strong and focussed. If you think the post is questionable, please don't post it. Thanks!



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Prophet wrote:
    Who says it doesn't?

    Having "God" (capital "G," no less) on our money is tantamount to establishing a national religious preference. Get rid of it. End of story.



    As usual, coconut hits the nail on the head with laser like precision. Every point made is so dead on with reality that I nearly creamed my pants in excitement.

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    MeBaby wrote:
    Hey GC...... I just checked with God and he says you STILL haven't convinced him that the doesn't exist. He said you will need to be a whole lot more convincing. He also said that he would remind you of this conversation when you stand before him on judgement day.
    I don't have to prove he doesn't exist, you as a believe have to prove he does. There is a lot more evidence that he doesn't exist than that he does.

    Take it off the money, too much pain in this world in the name of god.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Godis real!! But I'm sure Obama has plenty of Tax Dollars working in the direction to disprove what this country was founded on.. lots of folks will say the Bible was just a bunch of stories made up by agroup of authorities from various camps to ensure that theyall get along, but heywho am I to say, I will always live in comfort with the faith in God that was instilled in me by my parents..If the good lord holds out long enough, and the world continues to spin on it's axis for another million years, the pilgrims that came over on the Mayflower will just be a myth, The freeing of the slaves and the Civil war will just be a myth, 911 will just be a myth, or a fable of sorts that someones parents tried to impart on the children to prepareand educate them in something that they really have no intrest in simply because over the years the sensation of the events have been dulled by theorist..

    Keep God on the money, If I even see a penny on the ground I pick it up, because it has In God We Trust stamped on it, and to me that is Valuable..

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    ... Citizen ...

    With respect may I say that the attacks on my rights to own a gun are being aimed also at the words UNALIENABLE RIGHTS.

    The Founding Fathers were indeed knowing nostics . Sinceatheist believes by their on faith that there is no god , that is their religion guaranteed them by our laws . The show me or agnostic's faith in the not knowing is also a right .

    We as a group must unite to protect each other's rights . Historically the words " In God We Trust " has been on our currency so maybe we should let it stay there because if we tear down supports the house will fall .

    I believe that you know that many in the world have lost their right to self defense and the right to keep and bear arms . We are here to unite together inorder to keep our UNALIENABLE RIGHTS.

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    R a Z o R wrote:
    We as a group must unite to protect each other's rights . Historically the words " In God We Trust " has been on our currency so maybe we should let it stay there because if we tear down supports the house will fall .

    Oh come on!So because it's always been that way it should stay that way? I know you know better than that.

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    My faith in a higher being is with me 24/7.. It would be a miserable life if I didn't feel there was a God. Stylez I'm starting to understand you a little better now!

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    Venator wrote:
    MeBaby wrote:
    Hey GC...... I just checked with God and he says you STILL haven't convinced him that the doesn't exist. He said you will need to be a whole lot more convincing. He also said that he would remind you of this conversation when you stand before him on judgement day.
    I don't have to prove he doesn't exist, you as a believe have to prove he does. There is a lot more evidence that he doesn't exist than that he does.

    Take it off the money, too much pain in this world in the name of god.
    lol. The evidence is all around you. I don't have to prove he exists. He will take care of that himself. But if you wait until you see him to believe that he exists... it will be too late.

    ETA: BTW.... how do you have negative evidence? Evidence that he doesn't exist?? I believe someone aid it best when they said "There are none so blind as those thatWON'T see".

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    I am agnostic, but I don't care if some one practices religion (most of the time). I also don't care that "In God We Trust" is still in certain places of our country. I do care though what the left wing libtards do or think. I also do care to do the exact opposite.

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    The " historical statement " is similar to your Enviroment Impact Study that was used to reverse my right to CCW in national parks . Your excuse to study the impact of lead bullets and not lead sinkers used in fishing is just asinine and politically currupt .

    In God We Trust is historically on our currency and is a fact in the court system . Perhaps we as a nation should have a national vote and while we are at it let's add the voteas to people opinion concerning the 2nd amendment .

    ... AWDsty lez ...

    How do you fell about your right to keep and bear arms ? I doubt that you are going to just seat watching . Many other liberally minded will except the historical reasoning and I hope that you can understand the logic and emotion of doing so .

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    Off topic ...

    We support all gun owners, regardless of whether you worship Christ, Jehovah, Baha'u'llah, Allah, Buddha, Kali, Vishnu, Krishna, Lord Ganesha, one of the 24 Jinas, one of the Kami, the teachings of Lao Tse, Baron Samedi or any other Loa, Zeus or any of his family, Zoroaster, any member of the Aesir, the procreative spirit of nature, or a nude picture of Sarah Michelle Gellar.

    Therefore, while I personally am a Christian and place my trust in God, family and guns, I declare that money should hereafter say ... "In Sarah Michelle Gellar's perky breasts we trust" and close the thread.




    John


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