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Thread: Disclose while Open Carrying in Vehicle

  1. #1
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    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
    concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
    (a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.


    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

    What's everyone think?

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    There is no such thing as Open Carrying in a vehicle. If you are in your vehicle (or even ON it, as in a motorcycle) then according to the state of Michigan, you are concealing it with the vehicle.

    At least, as far as I know.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    There is no such thing as Open Carrying in a vehicle. If you are in your vehicle (or even ON it, as in a motorcycle) then according to the state of Michigan, you are concealing it with the vehicle.

    At least, as far as I know.
    Please to re-read the law above...

    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.

    Our own legislator, by it's own writing, says that you can carry a pistol in a vehicle "NOT CONCEALED"



    Let me say this simpler... Our CPL gives us (for sake of argument) two rights.
    1) The Right to carry a concealed pistol
    2) The Right to carry a pistol in a vehicle - either concealed or not concealed

    The disclosure law says that IF you are carrying concealed, you must disclose.

    BUT, in reading number 2, you will see that just because you are carrying a pistol in your vehicle, does NOT mean that you are carrying a CONCEALED pistol in your vehicle. They are NOT mutually inclusive.

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    but the problem is... as soon as you enter your vehicle it is considered concealed, whether it is in the open or not.

    This is also the reason why a non-CPL holder CANNOT Open Carry in a vehicle, which is why they must load and unload at the trunk of their vehicle, without a CPL.

    what that is stating, that within the vehicle itself, the pistol does not have to be concealed. but that within a vehicle, it is still considered concealed.

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    What's everyone think?
    Zig's statement ("If you are in your vehicle (or even ON it, as in a motorcycle) then according to the state of Michigan, you are concealing it with the vehicle") is incorrect, perthe laws you present and your analysis of them.

    Your analysis seems to becorrect, assuming you haven't left any other relevant law out.

    Test it the next time you are stopped by a peace officer in your vehicle while open-carrying. Let us know how it turns out.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Was more a hypothetical discussion.. at least for me..

    I know we all hate it, but I don't have any problem with disclosure. In fact, the few times I've been stopped for minor traffic infractions, I've found that having the CPL actually helped. One encounter turned into a 'what do you carry, do you like it, etc.." discussion... and no ticket.. Another turned into a "Since you have a CPL, I'm not even going to bother running your record - it must be pretty good.. Drive a little slower".. no ticket...

    I like analyzing laws just for the sake of doing so sometimes...

    Ben

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    viperar15 wrote:
    but the problem is... as soon as you enter your vehicle it is considered concealed, whether it is in the open or not.
    No, according to the law presented in this thread, being in your vehiclewhile carrying your gun is consideredunlawfulunless you have a CPL.Unless you find and presentanother law that says specifically it is considered concealed. As Pilot points out, the law itself recognizes that carry in a vehicle may be "concealed or not concealed".
    This is also the reason why a non-CPL holder CANNOT Open Carry in a vehicle, which is why they must load and unload at the trunk of their vehicle, without a CPL.
    No, the reason a person without a CPL cannot open carry in a vehicle is because they can't carry at all (openly or concealed) in a vehicle without a CPL, as explained above. The law does not say anything about whether or not a gun is considered concealed when carried in a vehicle, it just says it is unlawful to carry a gun in a vehicle without a CPL. Unless you find and presentanother law that says specifically what you are claiming. You may be right, but not by the laws presented here so far.


    what that is stating, that within the vehicle itself, the pistol does not have to be concealed. but that within a vehicle, it is still considered concealed.
    This seems to be your interpretation of the meaning of the law, because the law doesn't have those specific statements in it. However, even that interpretation I believe is not rationally supported, unless you can present a logical argument that gets us from what the law says to what you think it means.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    Was more a hypothetical discussion.. at least for me..

    I know we all hate it, but I don't have any problem with disclosure. In fact, the few times I've been stopped for minor traffic infractions, I've found that having the CPL actually helped. One encounter turned into a 'what do you carry, do you like it, etc.." discussion... and no ticket.. Another turned into a "Since you have a CPL, I'm not even going to bother running your record - it must be pretty good.. Drive a little slower".. no ticket...

    I like analyzing laws just for the sake of doing so sometimes...

    Ben
    We've all been told/heard that you must immediately disclose if stopped by a LEO. However, Section 5o (MCL 28.425o) contains no such requirement. In fact, I find no statue/section that mentions/requires disclosure-only the info we see in the MSP, MCRGO, Etc,FAQ's that include the disclosure and State Civil Infractions for the 1st & 2nd offense.



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    MCL 28.425f

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.


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    Very interesting.

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    MCL 28.425f

    SNIP
    Thanks Pilot

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
    concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
    (a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.


    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

    What's everyone think?
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    Then, you answered your own question. There is no debating it.

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    custom.45acp wrote:
    PilotPTK wrote:
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
    concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
    (a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.


    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

    What's everyone think?
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    Then, you answered your own question. There is no debating it.
    Custom, I think Pilot was questioning whether or not disclosure was required if OC'ing when stopped.

    ETA:

    PilotPTK Wrote:

    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".


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    PilotPTK wrote:
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
    concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
    (a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.


    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

    What's everyone think?
    My spin based on this:

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    Is that you would have to tell them, immediately. We can debate what the line in red means, but an argument could be made by a prosecutor that it's in your vehicle and you must disclose. They added immediately when they update in 2003.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    MCL 28.425f

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    This is his reply.

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    custom.45acp wrote:
    PilotPTK wrote:
    MCL 28.425f

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    This is his reply.
    I think every understands what's in Red, however, Pilot was questioning if (3) applied to those who were OC'ing under the same circumstances.

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    Venator wrote:
    PilotPTK wrote:
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
    concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
    (a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.


    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle'* they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL".* It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

    What's everyone think?
    My spin based on this:

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    Is that you would have to tell them, immediately.* We can debate what the line in red means, but an argument could be made by a prosecutor that it's in your vehicle and you must disclose.* They added immediately when they update in 2003.
    But, what you have in read is not stating under what conditions one must disclose, it's simply stating WHAT you must disclose. The part I put in BLUE is actually WHEN you must disclose, and in my opinion, a gun laying out on the dash is not included here.

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    Venator wrote:
    PilotPTK wrote:
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
    concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
    (a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
    (b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.


    Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

    The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

    The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

    What's everyone think?
    My spin based on this:

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.


    Is that you would have to tell them, immediately. We can debate what the line in red means, but an argument could be made by a prosecutor that it's in your vehicle and you must disclose. They added immediately when they update in 2003.
    I have to agree with this.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    Let's see.

    Cop CAN SEE GUN. In order to have a gun inside a car, within reach, outside a case, one MUST have a CPL. He's GOING to ask for the CPL. Why don't you disclose?

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Let's see.

    Cop CAN SEE GUN. In order to have a gun inside a car, within reach, outside a case, one MUST have a CPL. He's GOING to ask for the CPL. Why don't you disclose?
    Would you disclose if you're OCing on the sidewalk?

    ETA a better question:

    If/When you get pulled over, do you immediately disclose that you have a drivers license or do you produce it when the officer asks?

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    I would disclose on the sidewalk, but only because even if I am carrying openly, I am also carrying concealed...
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Let's see.

    Cop CAN SEE GUN. In order to have a gun inside a car, within reach, outside a case, one MUST have a CPL. He's GOING to ask for the CPL. Why don't you disclose?
    Would you disclose if you're OCing on the sidewalk?
    No. A CPL is not required to OC on a sidewalk, unless that sidewalk is in a school zone. And if I were OCing in a school zone, yes, I would disclose that I have a CPL.

    ETA a better question:

    If/When you get pulled over, do you immediately disclose that you have a drivers license or do you produce it when the officer asks?
    I've been pulled over twice in my life. The first time I had my license for three months. I pulled my license out before he stepped out of his vehicle.

    The second time, I wasn't even asked for my ID. But after the stop, the cop tailed me for 4 miles b/c he thought I was drinking (most definitely wasnt). Most nervous 4 miles of my life.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    I would disclose on the sidewalk, but only because even if I am carrying openly, I am also carrying concealed...
    Hm.. this is slightly off-topic, but MCL 28.425f does not mention being lawfully stopped by LEO. So, is there another section that addresses illegal stops? If stopped, illegally, solely for OC, must you disclose?

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:

    I've been pulled over twice in my life. The first time I had my license for three months. I pulled my license out before he stepped out of his vehicle.

    The second time, I wasn't even asked for my ID. But after the stop, the cop tailed me for 4 miles b/c he thought I was drinking (most definitely wasnt). Most nervous 4 miles of my life.
    Right, that's my point. The second time you were pulled over, you didn't produce ID because you weren't asked. IF in fact, you are not required to disclose while OCing in a car, this would be the exact same situation.

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    SQLtables wrote:
    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    I would disclose on the sidewalk, but only because even if I am carrying openly, I am also carrying concealed...
    Hm.. this is slightly off-topic, but MCL 28.425f does not mention being lawfully stopped by LEO. So, is there another section that addresses illegal stops? If stopped, illegally, solely for OC, must you disclose?
    It says you must notify immediately when stopped.

    Legal stop or not, you must notify. The real question is this: what constitutes a stop? If you, say, witness an accident as a pedestrian, and stay to give a deposition, are you being stopped?

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