Disclose while Open Carrying in Vehicle

Taurus850CIA · Mar 31, 2009

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I would disclose on the sidewalk, but only because even if I am carrying openly, I am also carrying concealed...

zigziggityzoo · Mar 31, 2009

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SQLtables wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

Let's see.

Cop CAN SEE GUN. In order to have a gun inside a car, within reach, outside a case, one MUST have a CPL. He's GOING to ask for the CPL. Why don't you disclose?

Click to expand...

Would you disclose if you're OCing on the sidewalk?

No. A CPL is not required to OC on a sidewalk, unless that sidewalk is in a school zone. And if I were OCing in a school zone, yes, I would disclose that I have a CPL.

ETA a better question:

If/When you get pulled over, do you immediately disclose that you have a drivers license or do you produce it when the officer asks?

I've been pulled over twice in my life. The first time I had my license for three months. I pulled my license out before he stepped out of his vehicle.

The second time, I wasn't even asked for my ID. But after the stop, the cop tailed me for 4 miles b/c he thought I was drinking (most definitely wasnt). Most nervous 4 miles of my life.

SQLtables · Mar 31, 2009

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Taurus850CIA wrote:

I would disclose on the sidewalk, but only because even if I am carrying openly, I am also carrying concealed...

Hm.. this is slightly off-topic, but MCL 28.425f does not mention being lawfully stopped by LEO. So, is there another section that addresses illegal stops? If stopped, illegally, solely for OC, must you disclose?

SQLtables · Mar 31, 2009

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

I've been pulled over twice in my life. The first time I had my license for three months. I pulled my license out before he stepped out of his vehicle.

The second time, I wasn't even asked for my ID. But after the stop, the cop tailed me for 4 miles b/c he thought I was drinking (most definitely wasnt). Most nervous 4 miles of my life.

Right, that's my point. The second time you were pulled over, you didn't produce ID because you weren't asked. IF in fact, you are not required to disclose while OCing in a car, this would be the exact same situation.

zigziggityzoo · Mar 31, 2009

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SQLtables wrote:

Taurus850CIA wrote:

I would disclose on the sidewalk, but only because even if I am carrying openly, I am also carrying concealed...

Click to expand...

Hm.. this is slightly off-topic, but MCL 28.425f does not mention being lawfully stopped by LEO. So, is there another section that addresses illegal stops? If stopped, illegally, solely for OC, must you disclose?

It says you must notify immediately when stopped.

Legal stop or not, you must notify. The real question is this: what constitutes a stop? If you, say, witness an accident as a pedestrian, and stay to give a deposition, are you being stopped?

David in MI · Mar 31, 2009

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Taurus850CIA wrote:

Venator wrote:

PilotPTK wrote:

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

(2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county
concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:
(a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.
(b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.

Looking at those two laws.. I see no reason why I should have to disclose upon a traffic stop if I am openly-carrying my pistol.

The legislator makes a clear separation between 'concealing a pistol' and 'carrying a pistol in a vehicle' they even SPECIFY that you could possibly be carrying a pistol in a vehicle concealed OR not concealed.

The disclosure law ONLY applies if I am "CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL". It says nothing about "CARRYING A PISTOL IN A VEHICLE" and certainly nothing about "CARRYING A NON CONCEALED PISTOL IN A VEHICLE".

What's everyone think?

Click to expand...

My spin based on this:

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

Is that you would have to tell them, immediately. We can debate what the line in red means, but an argument could be made by a prosecutor that it's in your vehicle and you must disclose. They added immediately when they update in 2003.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with this.

I read that statement and believe that the, "upon his or her person," and, "in his or her vehicle," is being used to clarify the WHERE. As in, where is the pistol located? On his person or in his vehicle. I don't believe it is referring to the CPL holder being, "in his or her vehicle."

Consider the CPL holder who has a concealed weapon in his glovebox or console rather than on his person. This statement would require him to disclose to the officer that he does have a concealeded weapon either on his person or concealed in his or her vehicle.

PilotPTK · Mar 31, 2009

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Iread the two laws to my attorney. He is a friend, and told me this is his "quick and dirty" viewpoint. This is not to serve as official legal advice.

His response was "Based upon the two laws you just read me, I do not see any reason why you would need to disclose if you were openly-carrying a pistol in your vehicle"

He further went on, however, to say, that he would not be comfortable trying it unless the pistol was VERY visible to someone standing outside of the vehicle looking in. Concealed could be argued to be 'from the eye of the on-looker' so to speak.

Ben

custom.45acp · Mar 31, 2009

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

custom.45acp wrote:

PilotPTK wrote:

MCL 28.425f

28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

Click to expand...

This is his reply.:lol:

Click to expand...

I think every understands what's in Red, however, Pilot was questioning if (3) applied to those who were OC'ing under the same circumstances.

I believe it reads if the following apply then disclosure is a must:

1) you have been pulled over (or questioned - whatever the reason be)

2) You have a CPL

3) you are in your car

4) a loaded gun is ON you or IN the vehicle with you

Simple - YOU MUST DISCLOSE TO THE OFFICER

I am not a lawyer but this is how I read and understand it.

PilotPTK · Apr 1, 2009

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custom.45acp wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

custom.45acp wrote:

PilotPTK wrote:

MCL 28.425f

28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

Click to expand...

This is his reply.:lol:

Click to expand...

I think every understands what's in Red, however, Pilot was questioning if (3) applied to those who were OC'ing under the same circumstances.

Click to expand...

I believe it reads if the following apply then disclosure is a must:

1) you have been pulled over (or questioned - whatever the reason be)

2) You have a CPL

3) you are in your car

4) a loaded gun is CONCEALED ON you or CONCEALEDIN the vehicle with you

Simple - YOU MUST DISCLOSE TO THE OFFICER

I am not a lawyer but this is how I read and understand it.

Fixed it for you.

custom.45acp · Apr 1, 2009

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If you are not a CPL holder, can you have a loaded gun in your vehicle?

Venator · Apr 1, 2009

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custom.45acp wrote:

If you are not a CPL holder, can you have a loaded gun in your vehicle?

NO.....

in regards to the other posts here, I have sent a question to the MSP on this topic and will post what I receive. He is backed up at this time, so I don't expect a reply very soon.

custom.45acp · Apr 1, 2009

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[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]Proper Conduct During Encounters with Police[/font]

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size=-1]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"][size=+0]Responsibilities of Individuals With a CCW License:[/size][/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately discloseto the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.[/font]

[/size][/font]

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10941--,00.html

Is it considered concealed if it's loaded in a vehicle? Anywhere in the vehicle?

Venator · Apr 1, 2009

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Wow, that was fast. I got a response already. Seems like he agrees with my take on it. So I suggest youinform or face a possible charge. If you want to challenge it it would take a court case to determine otherwise.

Mr. Jeffs,

It is not possible to openly carry a pistol in a vehicle. Once a person enters a vehicle with a pistol, the pistol is concealed as contemplated by Michigan's criminal concealed weapons statute (MCL 750.227). As a result, if a person who does not have a CPL enters the passenger compartment of vehicle with a pistol they have committed a felony. If the person has a CPL, they are lawfully carrying a concealed pistol and are subject to the requirements placed on CPL holders, including the requirements to make certain notifications to police officers.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

SQLtables · Apr 1, 2009

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Venator wrote:

Wow, that was fast. I got a response already. Seems like he agrees with my take on it. So I suggest you inform or face a possible charge. If you want to challenge it it would take a court case to determine otherwise.

Mr. Jeffs,

It is not possible to openly carry a pistol in a vehicle. Once a person enters a vehicle with a pistol, the pistol is concealed as contemplated by Michigan's criminal concealed weapons statute (MCL 750.227). As a result, if a person who does not have a CPL enters the passenger compartment of vehicle with a pistol they have committed a felony. If the person has a CPL, they are lawfully carrying a concealed pistol and are subject to the requirements placed on CPL holders, including the requirements to make certain notifications to police officers.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

Well, I'm still going to disagree with this, not that I'm going to test it...

PilotPTK · Apr 1, 2009

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I disagree with the Sgt. as well. I, also, have no intention of testing it.

I disagree based upon:

(b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.

and

show me a law that says something along the lines of "A loaded pistol is considered concealed if it is carried inside of a vehicle" (I don't think anyone can show me that.)

So.. We have the LACK of legislation that says a pistol is concealed if it is in a vehicle

AND

we HAVE legislation that says, quite clearly, a pistol can be concealed OR not concealed in a vehicle.

I appreciate the Sgt. taking the time to answer our questions, but I don't believe that he backed up his opinion on this one very well.

Ben

PilotPTK · Apr 1, 2009

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MCL 750.227 further backs up my claim...

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

Yet another peice of legislation that suggests it's possible to carry a pistol NOT concealed inside of a vehicle.

I agree that you need a CPL to carry a pistol in a vehicle - PERIOD. I do not agree that you ALWAYS have to disclose just because you are excercising a privilege granted by said license. The license gives us several priviliges (carrying concealed, carrying in a vehicle, openly carrying in a pistol free zone, carrying in places with liquor licenses, etc.). However, the only time we have to disclose is when excercising the particular privilege of carrying concealed.

Ben

PilotPTK · Apr 1, 2009

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If it were illegal to wearconcealed orange shirts (think an undershirt)or to wear orange shirts while riding ina vehicle..

And I gave you a license that allowed you to wear orange shirts concealed and wear orange shirts while riding in a vehicle.

and then made a law that says you have to disclose if you are wearing a concealed orange shirt.

Would you have to disclose if you were wearing an orange shirt in a vehicle, if it wasn't concealed?

Answer.. No.

Same logic.

custom.45acp · Apr 1, 2009

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Sounds logical to me, except if you are in a vehicle, gun loaded in the holster, you are right handed (carrying strong side), police officer approaches on the driver side, IS THE PISTOL IN PLAIN SIGHT (even ifit's orange)?

I'd say this is just a little on the far side! :what:

PilotPTK · Apr 1, 2009

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Per my discussion with an attorney friend.. I agree with you.

"He further went on, however, to say, that he would not be comfortable trying it unless the pistol was VERY visible to someone standing outside of the vehicle looking in. Concealed could be argued to be 'from the eye of the on-looker' so to speak."

I'm not arguing that it may be difficult to 'open carry' a pistol in a vehicle. I am arguing, however, that it IS possible, and, that if you are able, you DO NOT have to disclose.

viperar15 · Apr 1, 2009

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custom.45acp wrote:

Sounds logical to me, except if you are in a vehicle, gun loaded in the holster, you are right handed (carrying strong side), police officer approaches on the driver side, IS THE PISTOL IN PLAIN SIGHT (even ifit's orange)?

I'd say this is just a little on the far side! :what:

i was gonna post exactly that! when i drive my mustang, i'm low in the car. pistol on my right side and kinda stuck between my waist and the console. you cannot see it, even though its openly carried.

same goes for my truck. officer comes up to the truck and is looking across or up into the window. cannot see anything lower.

Disclose while Open Carrying in Vehicle

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