Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: This may have already been discussed, but...

  1. #1
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    I was told by the MSP that I may OC in a place that sells alcohol for consumption off the premises. They said that "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" (which is the wording of the law under places you can't OC without a CPL) is not the same as a place that sells alcohol for consumption not on the premises (just a place with a liquor license). Since the law only specifies that you can't OC in "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" but doesn't say anything about a place with a liquor license (like Meijer), OC is allowed at Meijer and similar places.

    I read on this forum that one may not (without a CPL) OC in any place that sells alcohol. These two sources are contradictory and I would like some clarification.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  2. #2
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Waterford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    347

    Post imported post

    Hello EM87... if you haven't already checked this thread out, it may help you... 4 pages of discussion on this topic...

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/22101.html

  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    I was told by the MSP that I may OC in a place that sells alcohol for consumption off the premises. They said that "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" (which is the wording of the law under places you can't OC without a CPL) is not the same as a place that sells alcohol for consumption not on the premises (just a place with a liquor license). Since the law only specifies that you can't OC in "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" but doesn't say anything about a place with a liquor license (like Meijer), OC is allowed at Meijer and similar places.

    I read on this forum that one may not (without a CPL) OC in any place that sells alcohol. These two sources are contradictory and I would like some clarification.
    I think this covers it and is agreed on by most MOC members.

    Who told you this? Must be thinking of with a CPL as Open carry is a "new" concept to may in law enforcement and when they think about carrying a handgun they automatically think concealed and forget about 750.234d.

    This is from the MSP legislative liaison:

    "Mr. Jeffs,

    MCL 750.234d(1)(h) prohibits a non-CPL holder from possessing a firearm on the premises of an "establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act...being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws." That Act was repealed and replaced with the Liquor Control Code.

    MCL 436.2303(5), which is part of the Code, states that a "reference in any other law to the Michigan liquor control act...is considered to be a reference to this act." Essentially, the newer Code requires that a reference to the old Act be read as if it were a reference to the new Code. As a result, an establishment licensed under the current Liquor Control Code is a firearms free zone for non-CPL holders under MCL 750.234d.

    It's also worth noting that MCL 750.234d applies to any establishment with a liquor license because it does not contain limiting language such as that found in the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders (see MCL 28.425o(1)(d) which is limited to a "bar or tavern...")."

    Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    Who told you this?* Must be thinking of with a CPL as Open carry is a "new" concept to may in law enforcement and when they think about carrying a handgun they automatically think concealed and forget about 750.234d.

    This is from the MSP legislative liaison:

    "Mr. Jeffs,
    *
    MCL 750.234d(1)(h) prohibits a non-CPL holder from possessing a firearm on the premises of an "establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act...being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws."* That Act was repealed and replaced with the Liquor Control Code.*
    *
    MCL 436.2303(5), which is part of the Code, states that a "reference in any other law to the Michigan liquor control act...is considered to be a reference to this act."* Essentially, the newer Code requires that a reference to the old Act be read as if it were a reference to the new Code.* As a result, an establishment licensed under the current Liquor Control Code is a firearms free zone for non-CPL holders under MCL 750.234d.
    *
    It's also worth noting that MCL 750.234d applies to any establishment with a liquor license because it does not contain limiting language such as that found in the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders (see MCL 28.425o(1)(d) which is limited to a "bar or tavern...")."
    *
    Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    All this law reading is a bit confusing. Does that information differentiate between "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" and a business with a liquor license? I was told that those were two different things, which is why I'm asking this question. I don't have the name of the person I talked to. All I know is that it was a MSP officer.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  5. #5
    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Dearborn Heights, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    237

    Post imported post

    We need a lawyer on staff to explain laws to those of us that barely passed english! :what:

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Who told you this? Must be thinking of with a CPL as Open carry is a "new" concept to may in law enforcement and when they think about carrying a handgun they automatically think concealed and forget about 750.234d.

    This is from the MSP legislative liaison:

    "Mr. Jeffs,

    MCL 750.234d(1)(h) prohibits a non-CPL holder from possessing a firearm on the premises of an "establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act...being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws." That Act was repealed and replaced with the Liquor Control Code.

    MCL 436.2303(5), which is part of the Code, states that a "reference in any other law to the Michigan liquor control act...is considered to be a reference to this act." Essentially, the newer Code requires that a reference to the old Act be read as if it were a reference to the new Code. As a result, an establishment licensed under the current Liquor Control Code is a firearms free zone for non-CPL holders under MCL 750.234d.

    It's also worth noting that MCL 750.234d applies to any establishment with a liquor license because it does not contain limiting language such as that found in the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders (see MCL 28.425o(1)(d) which is limited to a "bar or tavern...")."

    Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    All this law reading is a bit confusing. Does that information differentiate between "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" and a business with a liquor license? I was told that those were two different things, which is why I'm asking this question. I don't have the name of the person I talked to. All I know is that it was a MSP officer.
    It says that any place that has any licenses issued by this act is off limits to firearms unless you havea CPL. Simple.

    Do you have a CPL? If you do you can carry OC or CC in a place that sell booze and food, like an Olive Garden or in a place that sells booze to be consumed off the premises, like a convenience store or a Krogers. If they don't sell food (a good old fashioned bar) the law says you can OC in there.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member tygereye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Waterford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    347

    Post imported post

    ISMOID wrote:
    We need a lawyer on staff to explain laws to those of us that barely passed english! :what:
    So true....

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    To further enforce the point that Venator made;

    Have CPL:
    -OC OR CC in a place that sells liquor for off premise consumption only
    -OC OR CC in a place that sells liquor for consumption on premisis if that is not the primary business of the place. (Olive Garden, Applebees)
    -OC in a place that sells liquor for consumption on premisis if that is the primary business of the place (flat out bar/tavern/etc)

    Don't have CPL:
    If it's a business and it can sell liquor PERIOD than you CAN NOT carry. PERIOD.

    Have or don't have CPL but are consuming alcohol:
    DO NOT CARRY

  9. #9
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    Hmm, fair enough. I am very familiar with where I can OC/CC (especially now that this has been cleared up for me). I've read the list many times. I don't have my CPL yet, but the application is turned in and I've been fingerprinted. All I can do now is wait. Two to three months, they told me... it seems like forever but it's only been 3 weeks. Soon enough I won't have to worry about where I OC.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MOC Charter Member - Shelby Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Yeah, having a CPL is nice when you open-carry. I think I would stab myself in the eyeball out of frustration if I were trying to get along without a CPL in Michigan.

    I've Openly carried in just about all of the Pistol Free Zone's now. The only one I haven't carried in is a school. I guess I'm just chicken.. I pick my god-son up at least once a week at school (I have to go inside to get him as he stays late for a study group), and I just haven't yet had the cahoonies to keep it strapped on when I walk in...

    Ben

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    Hmm, fair enough. I am very familiar with where I can OC/CC (especially now that this has been cleared up for me). I've read the list many times. I don't have my CPL yet, but the application is turned in and I've been fingerprinted. All I can do now is wait. Two to three months, they told me... it seems like forever but it's only been 3 weeks. Soon enough I won't have to worry about where I OC.
    Keep in mind there are two laws in regards to gun free zones.

    One for a CPL holder carrying concealed and one without a CPL. There are slight but very important differences. Learn them both. And don't carry in any place that sell any alcohol, unless you have your CPL.

    Concealed Carry:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (i) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    Without a CPL

    MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    c) A court.

    d) A theatre.

    e) A sports arena.

    f) A day care center.

    g) A hospital.

    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act,…



    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Who told you this? Must be thinking of with a CPL as Open carry is a "new" concept to may in law enforcement and when they think about carrying a handgun they automatically think concealed and forget about 750.234d.

    This is from the MSP legislative liaison:

    "Mr. Jeffs,

    MCL 750.234d(1)(h) prohibits a non-CPL holder from possessing a firearm on the premises of an "establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act...being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws." That Act was repealed and replaced with the Liquor Control Code.

    MCL 436.2303(5), which is part of the Code, states that a "reference in any other law to the Michigan liquor control act...is considered to be a reference to this act." Essentially, the newer Code requires that a reference to the old Act be read as if it were a reference to the new Code. As a result, an establishment licensed under the current Liquor Control Code is a firearms free zone for non-CPL holders under MCL 750.234d.

    It's also worth noting that MCL 750.234d applies to any establishment with a liquor license because it does not contain limiting language such as that found in the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders (see MCL 28.425o(1)(d) which is limited to a "bar or tavern...")."

    Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441
    All this law reading is a bit confusing. Does that information differentiate between "an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control act" and a business with a liquor license? I was told that those were two different things, which is why I'm asking this question. I don't have the name of the person I talked to. All I know is that it was a MSP officer.
    Isn't a liquor license issued under the authority of the Michigan Liquor Control Act?

    If so then there is zero difference between "a business with a liquor license" and "an establishment licensed under the Michigan Liquor Control Act".

    Bronson

    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    Thanks, Venator. I'm familiar with the differences. And Bronson, that's good to know. Thank you as well (and of course also to everyone who's posted here)
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    Thanks, Venator. I'm familiar with the differences. And Bronson, that's good to know. Thank you as well (and of course also to everyone who's posted here)
    Actually I was asking a question as I don'tknow for certain if a "liquor license" is issued under the authority of the Michigan Liquor Control Act. Assuming it is then there is no difference. If a liquor license is NOT issued under authority of the act then we have a different discussion.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  15. #15
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,071

    Post imported post

    If an establishment sells alcohol at all, they are required to be licensed under the Michigan Liquor Control Act. There are a bazillion different types of licenses, but they are ALL issued under the act:

    On-Premise Retail Licenses

    These licenses are issued for the type of business where alcoholic beverages are served on the
    premises:
    · Class C This license allows the business to sell beer, wine, liquor and mixed spirit drinks
    for consumption on the premises.
    · Club This license enables a private club to sell beer, wine, liquor and mixed spirit
    drinks to bona fide members only.
    · B Hotel This license permits a hotel to sell beer, wine, liquor and mixed spirit drinks for
    consumption on the premises and in the rooms of bona fide guests.
    · A Hotel This license allows a hotel to sell only beer and wine for consumption on the
    premises and in the rooms of bona fide guests.
    · Tavern This license enables a business to sell only beer and wine for consumption on
    the premises.
    · Brewpub This license is issued in conjunction with an on-premise license authorizing the
    licensee to manufacture and sell beer for consumption on the premises or for
    take-out.
    · Micro This manufacturing license allows a business to sell beer produced on the
    Brewer premises to consumers for consumption on or off the premises.
    · Resort Resort licenses, Resort economic development licenses and SDD Resort
    Licenses can be issued for Class C, A-Hotel, B-Hotel, Tavern and SDD
    classifications. These licenses are available only after all the licenses allowed
    under the quota are issued and if the business to be licensed will directly benefit
    tourism or visitors.
    An on-premise licensee may also hold a Specially Designated Merchant (SDM) license to sell
    beer and wine for consumption off the premises.

    Off-Premise Retail Licenses
    These licenses are issued for the type of business where alcoholic beverages are sold for
    consumption elsewhere, and where consumption on the premises of the retailer is not allowed.
    The two types of off-premise licenses are:
    · SDD Specially Designated Distributor. This license permits the licensee to sell liquor
    and mixed drinks (distilled only) for consumption off the licensed premises.
    · SDM Specially Designated Merchant. This license allows the licensee to sell only beer
    and wine for consumption off the licensed premises.
    An SDD licensee can, and usually does, hold an SDM license.

    - 9 -
    INTRODUCTION
    Special Activity Permits are available to eligible retail licensees for a variety of activities. An
    inspection fee is charged for these permits and for most of them, local police and/or local
    government approval must be obtained before the Commission will grant the permit. A detailed
    fact sheet on Special Permits is available from the MLCC.
    Sunday Sales For On-premise (Class C, B-Hotel and Club), Off-premise (SDD) and Resort
    (Class C, B-Hotel and SDD) licensees. Allows the sale of liquor between noon
    and midnight on Sundays if permitted by the local government. (Permit not
    needed for beer and wine sales).
    After-hours Food For all On-premise licensees (including Resorts). Allows a business with a
    full-service kitchen to remain open for the sale of food between 2:30 a.m. and
    7:00 a.m. Monday through Saturday, and from 2:30 a.m. and noon on Sunday
    Sale or consumption of alcoholic beverages during these times is prohibited.
    Local Police approval is required.
    Dance For all On-premise licensees. Allows dancing by patrons in a designated area.
    Police and local government approval are required.
    Entertainment For all On-premise licensees. Permits certain types of live performances on
    the licensed premises. Approval of police and local government is required.
    (The permit is not needed for playing musical instruments, singing or for public
    TV.) An Entertainment permit does not allow topless activity.
    Topless Activity For On-premise licensees, as applicable. Allows topless activity on the
    licensed premises by employees, agents, contractors of the licensee or any
    person under the control of or with the permission of the licensee.
    Bowling, Golf, Ski For On-premise licensees, as applicable. Generally allows the
    Misc. business to operate without the sale of alcoholic beverages before or after the
    legal hours for liquor sales. Police approval is required.
    Outdoor Service For all On-premise licensees. Permits the sale and consumption of alcoholic
    beverages in areas outside the licensed premises. Local police approval is
    required.
    Additional Bar For Class C, B-Hotel, Class C Resort, and B-Hotel Resort licensees.
    Required for each additional bar where customers may buy alcoholic beverages.
    Direct Connection For all retail licensees. Allows connecting the licensed business to an
    Approval unlicensed area not under direct control of the licensee. Local police approval is
    required.
    Living Quarters For On-premise (Class C, Tavern), Off-premise (SDD, SDM) and Resort
    (Class C, Tavern, SDD) licensees. Allows living quarters to be directly
    connected to the licensed premises. Local police approval is required.
    Banquet Facility Extension of an on-premise license for the serving of alcoholic beverages at a
    facility used only for scheduled functions and events. Sale of food and nonalcoholic
    beverages must be at least 50% of gross sales at an on-premise
    location within the state. The permitted premises must be under the sole control
    of the licensee.


    I don't have the time at the moment to continue searching MCL for each individual license. I started yesterday, and there are scads of different chapters and subchapters to go through to confirm this document, but so far it appears accurate. Feel free to look for yourself, but I think it's more than safe to assume that if you can buy alcohol from someone, they had to get a license to sell it, and you can not carry there without a CPL.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CI...03_86837_7.pdf
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  16. #16
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    Wow, great info!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •