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Thread: So tired of law confusion around KCMO

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    Hello,

    I have read posts on this site as well as missouricarry.com for quite a while. I have my CCW permit. Occasionally during warm weather I'd like to be able to open carry, however I feel due to my physique and age appearance, I would be a target of harrassment.

    This morning I decided to go to a few gun shops around where I live and see if there was anything I couldn't live without. While in one of the unnamed gun shops, I asked the owner what his opinions on open carry are, as it is legal in KC and some of the surrounding cities. He loudly informed me that it is NOT legal in KC, and "these people that think they know the law better than the LEO's.... well, good luck to them. Just try it and see what happens!"

    I gave him a bit of a surprised look and then said "yeah... " and promptly left... this was the owner of a gun shop... one with an extensive LEO resume.

    Is it really that bad? Is there THAT much confusion on these laws around KC? I don't have the money to hire an attorney to defend myself for doing something that supposedly is legal after getting arrested/harrassed for it.

    I want to excersize my right... but is there something I am missing here? Either I'm just a simpleton who doesn't understand the statutes, or are 3/4 of LEOs and other people just plain wrong? Which brings up another point... if they are all wrong, how does someone like me have a chance? Deep pockets I suppose?



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    I know how you feel. I called and asked the same question at a couple gun shops in Independence and was almost yelled at absolutely NOT. They acted like I had my nerve even asking suck a dumb question. I don't no what to do but we have to do something to stand up for our rights. I'm new here so I don't have the answer's. I'm hoping someday to hear some good news.

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    Asking a gun shop about the gun law is about as useless as asking a LEO. All you will get is the biased opinion of how they want it to be not how the law actually is.

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    I think you are missing my point... Gun shop owners are as pro 2nd as they come... why would they be so against OC?

    You all are correct... there is no law against OC in KCMO. However, there is no law FOR it... thus, you are just asking to be held for 'public disturbance' or 'disturbing the peace' or whatever other grey-area charges they can file against you, when cry babies call the police. Will you get convicted? Probably, without a good attorney... that is my point...

    I WANT to OC, and I feel I should be able to... but again, I don't have deep pockets or a friend who is a lawyer...

    I see stories on other sites about people being detained for OC... but never on THIS site... The threads here seem to read: "I informed the LEO of the laws, and although he continued to argue, he left..." I have a hard time believing that is the case EVERY time...

    I'm just saying, if you guys really want to push OC, lets get the WHOLE truth, and not half of it... educate us so-called "sheeple"






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    ..and I fully believe your story. I just think there is another side of it... people that weren't so fortunate. I try to read all the LEO encounter stories I can find... it helps to not only educate me on good communication with them, but also helps with expectations of these encounters...


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    There are cases on this forum where things have not gone so well. The resulting legal action from these violations of peoples rights have caused many LEOs to be a little more careful about what they try to pull.

    One of the more recent cases is Melanie Hain.

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    What happened to Melanie?

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    The attitude of this site is so open and cohesive that(most) people aren'tembarrassed to share their stories. I feel (based on stories from other states) that most of the encounters shared are unavaoidable situations brought about by ignorant LEO's. That's whywe rarely--if ever--see a story about some bent out of shape OC'erwho tried to carry in a restricted municipality.

    Anyone who's worth their salt would do ALL that they can to review and educate themselves on laws andlegal cases, and to prepare themselves for the inevitable--confrontation, which is exactly what you're doing by joining OCDO and becoming a member of the OC society. I'm currently living in Delaware (stellar 2A state) and when I move back, I'm going to be apprehensive about the attitude my hometown holds for OC. BUT, I'm confident that justice will prevail because I've done my research, and I've been actively listening to the "seasoned" carriers.

    Sooo, take everything you hear with a grain of salt, and know that every situation is unique and that you have the law on your side. You don't need a fancy-shmancy lawyer to tell you what you're doing is legal. This site is proof enough! Strive to educate yourself (and everyone who questions you) to the max, and soon enough you'll be sharing your own victory stories with the gorup!

    "Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    James357 wrote:
    What happened to Melanie?
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/16523.html
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Its amazing just how far the envelope for the First Amemdment is stretched,and just the opposite for the Second and the Fourth Amendments.In KCMO,the Missouri Constitution,is still in effect,no matter what some shop owner,gun owner,LEO,ect............tells you its not.We still have those rights ,PERIOD.Now,a city CAN,and SOMETIMES DOES,ban open carry of a firearm....but KCMO isnt one of them.Some LEO's want to oppress,intimidate,the sheeple.I have had several encounters with LEO's open carrying.....most have been civil.I have done my best to stay calm,keeping in mind that the LEO Im dealing with doesnt even know the LAWS they are supposed to enforce.So,far,knock on wood....just talking and pinpointing the laws I am breaking has been my leverage.I dont need a LAW to open carry.....I have the MISOURI Constitution,that as a matter of fact....coinsides with the US CONSTITUTION.I was once told by a JUDGE that IGNORANCE of the LAW is no excuse...........I have used that exact verbage dealing with some LEO's.Beieve me,I have no lawyer friend,no deep pockets,I'm just chooseing to use those rights I have,while I still have them.Those people that dont know what they can do,or their right to do it,need educated................some will be receptive and some wont,thats their deal.So,thats why I choose to carry open when I do.People who dont know the difference NEED to LEARN the carrying a firearm,by a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN is NOT AGAINST the LAW....
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    The ATF has a listing of all the Missouri Statutes pertaining to firearms. It is only 2 1/2 pages long. I suggest keeping this in your pocket along with the applicable city ordinances and part of the state constitutionif you are going to OC in KCMO. There are plenty ofanti OC cops in the KCPD and even more are ignorant of it or think you should have a "legitimate reason" like working in a bad neighborhood or something. Arm yourself with the truth.

    Does anyone remember right before CC went into effect in MO,there was an epidemic ofKC Star newspapervendors that weregetting robbed & or shot at 4:00 or 5:00AM? The Star, ordinarily a somewhatliberal anti-gun newspaper decided, as a last resort,to let its nightvendors OC for protection and as a deterent. Immediately after that one of them got into a shootout with thugs and all the robberies stopped! The local media and some others changed their tune and called it a success, praising the lone vendor as heroic!

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    So, you want the whole story huh?? Well.. Here's a doozie for you all.

    My husband and I were in the Independence mall today, you know, blowing money on a tuesday during the day- we HAVE to be drug dealers, right?? Well, according to the Independence police, absolutely.

    So, we were there for oh, almost two hours (found nothing but crap btw)and as we were leaving, literally ten feet from the door, four officers quickly surrounded us. I forgot my firearm today, which is rare, but anyway, I wasn't carrying. My husband had his fobus with his PT111 in it, open to view from any direction. Didn't even have one in the chamber, BTW.

    So, the LEO started off irate, demanding my husband's ID, and when I told him that he wasn't required to give it, he became more irate. I asked if he was detaining my husband and he said yes. I asked on what charges, he stammerred for a few minutes then another LEO said "criminal trespassing".. YES, criminal trespassing.. no kidding! My husband handed over his ID, BTW. More on that at the end of this post.

    So, I pointed out to them all that FIRST of all, we hadn't been asked to leave, second, we did in fact look all over for a sign that said that firearms were not allowed, and we couldn't find any. Then they started in with "Do you have a CCW?" I said "huh?? Is he concealing??" At that point, I got our lawyer on the phone. Mr. LEO really got pissy then, and started screaming and making a scene. He then told another officer to "get her out of here". So, I asked what laws I had broken and he said "disorderly conduct".. Because I called our lawyer for legal advice???

    Anyway, I started to walk out and he started in on my husband.. "You better tell your girlfriend to shut the hell up- she's gonna get you hauled to jail".. Girlfriend? I showed him the 2 carats on my finger, and said I'm not his girlfriend. So, he started to grab my arm and shove me out the door. I had my lawyer on the speakerphone and she told them they had no right to touch me. He promptly removed his hands. When I was outside, I asked the LEO to show me any signs that said firearms weren't allowed. He said "I don't know where they are, but you can't just have a gun out in the open like that"

    huh??

    I said "I bet you don't know where they are because there AREN'T any" so, after a while one of them got a mall security officer and they said they had a sign by the entrance- at the street! I'm not kidding here- just hang in for a few minutes. Too bad for us, we came from a side street and there were NO signs posted. We even had a conversation about if he could OC inside the mall or not. I insisted that he could, after all, there was nothing posted, and I just came back from Louisiana, where OC'ing is very welcomed.. everywhere.

    So, I told them that I didn't see any signs where we came in, and we even went out of our way to find one. After about 5 minutes, they brought my husband outside. Apparent;y they had him inside making a big scene, then said he was causing a disturbance.. whatever..

    So, when they got him outside and the LEO that was with me told them I asked where the signs were, they hauled my husband BACK inside (thought he was trespassing?) to have him READ a tiny sign with "code of conduct" on it. It was literally the size of a regular sheet of paper, and had size 10 fonts on it, with about 40 rules. They still couldn't point out where he wasn't allowed to OC, but I guess that wasn't the point.

    Now for the kicker. They escorted us to our vehicle. I have 4 herniated discs and a bunch of other injuries from my time in the military. I'm handicapped, and have a placard because I can't walk very far. We got in the truck, and they pulled 3 cars up and blocked us in.

    They demanded proof - yes PROOF- that I was handicapped, they said I "walked fine" to them. We still had our lawyer on the phone, and she said to tell them to write a ticket if that was their intention and bring her my pink slip showing I was handicapped, but not to give it to them. So, to make a long story short, they took my handicapped placard, wrote my husband a ticket, and THEN the Sgt. called ME a "bitch". I had my husband put his window up, and the LEO tapped the glass and said "get out ofIndependence NOW", and we left. Nothing more was said. My lawyer heard it all on the phone, and I used my camera on my phone to record the rest. They actually escorted us out of Independence. All the way to the city limits. I didn't know we could be banned from a whole city.. Wow

    What about all of the houses we own there? Or all of the tax dollars they want us to pay for them? I think I'll disputeour property taxes on those houses this year for this reason....

    Now, for the guy who asked about OC'ers that are bent out of shape. That's my husband Usually, he gets upset, but in my opinion, he has every right to be when he is harassed about his decision to OC. People run around, displaying their political and religious views, their sexual orientation, and every other idea that pops in their heads, but when a choice is made to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, it's a problem. That isn't right.

    Today, my husbandwas very calm until they started grabbing me. The bottom line is this: We (the taxpayers) pay their salaries and I fully expect them to be courteous at all times. When they come up to us with a full blown attitude and are hostile, they can expect the same attitude from us. In a perfect world, it wouldn't even come down to that, but we all know this is not a perfect world and people are just jacked up when it comes to allowing others to exercise their rights.

    You see, the issue is this: If the police make a scene, then you must be doing something wrong, right? Nevermind that they don't know what they are talking about, or that they may be biased because the guy OC'ing is a big black guy that doesn't fit their stereotype of what a 28 year old black guy is, you kow, his pants don't drag the floor, hedoesn't havea little white "girlfriend", and apparently he's pretty loaded but doesn't look like a drug dealer... and oh no- they're shopping in the middle of the workday?

    Of course that was the primary issue here, I'd pay someone (a middle aged white guy, preferably) to go there during the workday, OC, and see what happens. I'd bet you there would be nothing to tell.

    So, that's the story, minutes old. If anyone would like to educate these LEO's, I did get their badge numbers and would be more than happy to post them.


    Does anyone think my husband should have produced ID to the officers? He did so because he thought he had to, even though I was saying that he was not required to. The officers claim that he was breaking the law by OC on private property and that there was a sign posted. While I agree that yes, one entrance did have a small black and white sign that said "weapons prohibited", we did not see any signs on or near the building.

    I don't think he should have handed his ID over. If he was breaking lawsas they claim, why was he not hauled off to jail?? Please, someone!! Help me win this argument!!!

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    Wow...

    Thank you for posting this... this is EXACTLY the kind of crap that caused me to start this thread in the beginning. You know you were legal in what you were doing, yet, you still got treated like a criminal, threatened to be arrested, and 'escorted' out of the city. Totally unacceptable...

    Some people on here criticize a person's choice to NOT open carry, exactly because of this kind of harassment. Do all you guys honestly believe that something you printed off on your computer is going to amount to a hill of beans to the officer? Doubtful... once in a while, yes... but it's the exception to the rule.

    I really hope that you can get something done about this... I would at a minimum write a letter telling your story (or have your attorney do it) and send it to the Chief in Indep.



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    Sounds like there was some officer misconduct and a good case fortheir review board, but you must first file a complaint. A call to your city councilman may get you some assistance, depending on who it is. What a terrible way to be treated. If you are going to act on this, you should probably act now while you have the motivation.

    I was pulled over a few years ago on 7hwy by a Lake Lotawana officer for doing 55 in a 45. My record was clean, I was polite, cooperative, and I informed him of the pistol in my car. He put his hand on his gun and started yelling, "Why do you have a gun in your car! Why do you have a gun in your car! Don't move. Keep your hands on the wheel! I'm going to checkyour serial numbers! He came to my passenger side and confiscated my gun. After 15 minutes and backup he returned to my window holding my pistol like a dirty diaper and poured the bullets out in my other hand. I was told not to load it until I was at least 5 miles down the road and I too got an escort out of town! I never complained of how I was treated or the violation of my rights and it has bothered me ever since. This officer probably continued to harrass others for the same thing because I chose not to do anything about it. I worked closely with law enforcement for 16 years and can tell you there are checks and balances built into the system, but they do not work unless we use them. A review board would probably help these guys refocus and become better officers, as well as review policy for the whole department.

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    OCing is just asking for trouble. There are many areas in and around where OC is legal however each city has its own rules: for instance you can travel down 71 hwy and be legal in one area and get caught in the next. It is really best to get your CCW and carry concealed. The whole purpose is to be armed and not let the bad guy know you are carrying. This gives you the element of surprise! Plus when you open carry you can risk getting shot or clubbed from behind just to have your weapon stolen.

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    Wow! I retired from Independence and I can tell you for sure that you and your husband could have avoided a lot of screaming and yelling both from and to the Officers if you had been respectful to them.

    The malls have been a target for robbers for years and it is the duty of each Officer to check you out when you have an OC.

    By just identifying yourself the Officer would have just checked you out and if you had no felonies or warrants released you on your way.

    Courtesy get courtesy it is their job.

    Now in your behalf they should not been rough in handling you and certainly not name calling.

    This may give you a lawsuit against them. Officers must stay focused and in control of their emotions at all times.

    I apoligize for their bad behavior but please understand that agression goes both ways.

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    DaFuzz55 wrote:
    Wow! I retired from Independence and I can tell you for sure that you and your husband could have avoided a lot of screaming and yelling both from and to the Officers if you had been respectful to them.

    The malls have been a target for robbers for years and it is the duty of each Officer to check you out when you have an OC.

    By just identifying yourself the Officer would have just checked you out and if you had no felonies or warrants released you on your way.

    Courtesy get courtesy it is their job.

    Now in your behalf they should not been rough in handling you and certainly not name calling.

    This may give you a lawsuit against them. Officers must stay focused and in control of their emotions at all times.



    I apoligize for their bad behavior but please understand that agression goes both ways.
    "Papers Please"

    I dont have a CCW and really dont want one, I have OCed in the KC area for awhile with minimal problems the KS side can be a pain but most of MO is open and I treat every LEO the same way they treat me. I have been completely complient, when there well manored and know there local laws, but when they are rude and ignoriant, I dont give them anything and ask if im under arrest and I walk away. I dont talk to LEOs becouse I dont have to and all they want to do is find a way to arrest you ( have seen that 8 out of 10 time im stopped)

    my fav thing I ever said to a cop is
    Cop- you know not to reach for that right
    Me - yea as long as you dont go for yours first

    we exchanged hellos he asked where I was going, I asked if I was under arrest , he said no, and I walked away. I was not rude nor was he, it was a good stop. Note: I was walking

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    I have only had a few encounters and all but one have been good. My favorite was at wallmart in independence. I was returning an item, and the greeter called the police when she saw i had a gun. The officer walked up and ws very polite. He told me that i was completely legal in what I was doing, and that the greeter ws nervous and just asked him to check me out. He never asked for papers, and was very polite. He asked what Iwas carrying, and asked me why I chose that. (It is my S&W .40) I told him that the .50 cal made my pants sag to much, and my wife didn't aprove of thugs. he laughed for about two minutes then told me to have a great day. I think they should have that guy teach an "officer, civillian interaction" class.

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    In Michigan, where ever there is issues with law enforcement concerning the OC of pistols, there is usually an OC picnic organized in that area in a very short period of time. The guys there, that have issues with law enforcement usually all carry digital audio recorders. They've fought the system and won many times.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    DaFuzz55 wrote:
    OCing is just asking for trouble. There are many areas in and around where OC is legal however each city has its own rules: for instance you can travel down 71 hwy and be legal in one area and get caught in the next. It is really best to get your CCW and carry concealed. The whole purpose is to be armed and not let the bad guy know you are carrying. This gives you the element of surprise! Plus when you open carry you can risk getting shot or clubbed from behind just to have your weapon stolen.
    Not looking for trouble..trying to avoid it. I conceal most of the time, but there are plenty of situations where open carrying is the best option. For one, when you don't want anyone to try to rob you in the first place. Open carry is a deterent, and a good one, especially when you are working in a bad neighborhood or walking in a mall parking lot where you are more likely to get robbed. Criminals tend to prey on the weak and look for easy low risk targets. Only a lunatic with a death wish is going to tangle with someone armed who clearly means business. On the other hand as a LEO, you pose an agressive threat to criminals and they have reason for clubbing or shooting you from behind, but you do not conceal yours, and for many of the same reasons others choose not to conceal theirs. The "whole purpose" is to protectmy life, not to lurethugs soI can surprise them. My conceal draw is awkward at best, and probably a second too late if someone already has a gun on me.

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