a question for you CT guys...

brk913 · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

In the state ofCT cities and towns cannot enforce laws or ordinances that are contrary to state law. The possession of a CT Pistol Permit negates this ordinance. If you are having doubts contact the NB PD and ask them if it is against the law. Additionally, whatever you decide I assure you open carry in the CITY of NEW BRITAIN will get you arrested for BOP or Disorderly even if the case is dropped in court you will still lose your permit and gun (if only temporarily) in the mean time you will get your name in the paper for an arrest, have to hire an attorney and dig deep into your wallet to make them acknowledge your "right".

JUMPMASTER · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

brk913 wrote:

In the state ofCT cities and towns cannot enforce laws or ordinances that are contrary to state law. The possession of a CT Pistol Permit negates this ordinance. If you are having doubts contact the NB PD and ask them if it is against the law. Additionally, whatever you decide I assure you open carry in the CITY of NEW BRITAIN will get you arrested for BOP or Disorderly even if the case is dropped in court you will still lose your permit and gun (if only temporarily) in the mean time you will get your name in the paper for an arrest, have to hire an attorney and dig deep into your wallet to make them acknowledge your "right".

I am very interested to know of the statute or case law that says the holder ofa CT pistol permit negatesa localordianance. Do you also think that a holder of a CT pistol permit has the right to walk into the Department Of Public Safety with his pistol even though the sign says "No weapons?"

Now, how can one be arrested for open carry since it is legal? Didn't you just say that towns cannot enforce laws or ordinances that are contrary to state law?

brk913 · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

Check with an Attorney if you do not believe me. West Hartford attempted to pass an ordinance banning the legal possession of handguns in Town Parks, the state stepped in and informed him they could not make such an ordinance. The state holds preemption over the towns and cities just like the Federal Government holds preemption over the states (like in the federal rule on interstate transport of firearms laws). The simple reason being is that it would be to confusing if the numerous towns and cities made up there own rules, if they did each would have to issue its own permit with its own rules. Just not going to work, especially in a small state like CT.

Specific state law gives the person in control of private propertythe authority to ban the carry of firearms, I believe the specific language is located in the same statute as the permit application process or therabouts. So, no it is not legal to carry into the DPS building if they have a sign that states "No Weapons".

Just as it is illegal under CT law to carry on K-12 School Property, anywhere the Legislature is conducting business, court houses and jails,

Under Federal law it is illegal to carry into federal buildings (including the Post Office)

Additionally, the reason I say the person will be arrested in NB is after living there for over 12 years as a permit holder (including at one time having a New Britain Permit) is the fact that 90% of law enforcement is quite ignorant on the status of open carry in CT and it is their job to make the arrest and let the courts figure it out. NB being a city (and not a suburban town, not that you could get away with it there either see Goldberg case)in CT has its dangerous areas, the police are not going to mess around with some guy who says he knows the law when they had to respond to a call of man with a gun, they are just going to arrest you and let you pay your way out of the court system....Ed Perulta's law suit could end this practice in CT, I hope very soon...

JUMPMASTER · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

brk913 wrote:

Check with an Attorney if you do not believe me. West Hartford attempted to pass an ordinance banning the legal possession of handguns in Town Parks, the state stepped in and informed him they could not make such an ordinance. The state holds preemption over the towns and cities just like the Federal Government holds preemption over the states (like in the federal rule on interstate transport of firearms laws). The simple reason being is that it would be to confusing if the numerous towns and cities made up there own rules, if they did each would have to issue its own permit with its own rules. Just not going to work, especially in a small state like CT.

Specific state law gives the person in control of private propertythe authority to ban the carry of firearms, I believe the specific language is located in the same statute as the permit application process or therabouts. So, no it is not legal to carry into the DPS building if they have a sign that states "No Weapons".

Just as it is illegal under CT law to carry on K-12 School Property, anywhere the Legislature is conducting business, court houses and jails,

Under Federal law it is illegal to carry into federal buildings (including the Post Office)

Additionally, the reason I say the person will be arrested in NB is after living there for over 12 years as a permit holder (including at one time having a New Britain Permit) is the fact that 90% of law enforcement is quite ignorant on the status of open carry in CT and it is their job to make the arrest and let the courts figure it out. NB being a city (and not a suburban town, not that you could get away with it there either see Goldberg case)in CT has its dangerous areas, the police are not going to mess around with some guy who says he knows the law when they had to respond to a call of man with a gun, they are just going to arrest you and let you pay your way out of the court system....Ed Perulta's law suit could end this practice in CT, I hope very soon...

Ok. But DPS is not a private building, it is a public building.

If the theories on Federal Preemption holds true then why does Connecticut have a ban on "Assault Weapons?" And why is the legislature now looking to make the possesion of Machine Guns illegal?

Do you have any information you can provide about the State stepping in as far as the West Hartford ordinance? I am trying to fight a "no weapons" sign that my Mayor has put up on our town hall building. He did not do an executive order nor did he go through the town council for an ordinance. The Town Attorney said he can do it. The NRA-ILA said he could do it. And an attorney in the State Legislature said he could do it.

buketdude · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

I am aware CT has judicial pre-emption that towns/cities cannot make laws that "seriously conflict" with state law...but that sounds weak..

brk913 · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

JUMPMASTER wrote:

Ok. But DPS is not a private building, it is a public building.

OK, I misquoted the statute so I looked it up for you: 29-28e: The issuance of any permit to carry a pistol or revolver does not thereby authorize the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver in any premises where the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the person who owns or exercises control over such premises.

I should have used the word premises instead of private property. My bad..that being said the Mayor who is exercising control over the premises can ban civialians from carrying firearms into the building...

As for your question regarding assault weapons, the federal government could step in and invalidate the law, however, they have no reason to do so, the state would cry about state's rights. You could attempt to challenge it through the courts but I believe the supreme court has sided with the government that "reasonable restrictions"can be placed just not blanket bans...this is how they will pick and pick until there is nothing left. Lawler and McDonald up at the state capitol are the biggest anti gun people you will ever meet, they have never seen a gun law or restriction they did not like and they are the two in charge up in Hartford.

A great explanation on preemption: http://law.jrank.org/pages/9329/Preemption.html

Towns and cities do have the authority to further restrict firearms but not a ban on carrying under a state permit, for example the ordinance of no discharging a firearm within city limits is enforceable, I know its messed up, and I am on your side, but this unfortunatley is the fault of the people we have allowed to be elected into state and local office, I run the class to get your permit here in CT and when I ask my class if they even know who there State Senator and Congressman are I almost never get an answer. Truly sad....

JUMPMASTER · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

brk913 wrote:

JUMPMASTER wrote:

Ok. But DPS is not a private building, it is a public building.

OK, I misquoted the statute so I looked it up for you: 29-28e: The issuance of any permit to carry a pistol or revolver does not thereby authorize the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver in any premises where the possession or carrying of a pistol or revolver is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the person who owns or exercises control over such premises.

I should have used the word premises instead of private property. My bad..that being said the Mayor who is exercising control over the premises can ban civialians from carrying firearms into the building...

As for your question regarding assault weapons, the federal government could step in and invalidate the law, however, they have no reason to do so, the state would cry about state's rights. You could attempt to challenge it through the courts but I believe the supreme court has sided with the government that "reasonable restrictions"can be placed just not blanket bans...this is how they will pick and pick until there is nothing left. Lawler and McDonald up at the state capitol are the biggest anti gun people you will ever meet, they have never seen a gun law or restriction they did not like and they are the two in charge up in Hartford.

A great explanation on preemption: http://law.jrank.org/pages/9329/Preemption.html

Towns and cities do have the authority to further restrict firearms but not a ban on carrying under a state permit, for example the ordinance of no discharging a firearm within city limits is enforceable, I know its messed up, and I am on your side, but this unfortunatley is the fault of the people we have allowed to be elected into state and local office, I run the class to get your permit here in CT and when I ask my class if they even know who there State Senator and Congressman are I almost never get an answer. Truly sad....

Let me play devils advocate for a minute. Let's say a Mayor says that he has the authority to exercise control over all town premises. Let's further imagine that the mayor says that he can control all town buildings and properties. Can he use that as justification to ban the possession of a firearm from Town owned streets, sidewalks, and right of ways? How is a city park different from a Town Hall building?

brk913 · Apr 14, 2009

imported post

You are playing more than devils advocate at this point you are just being argumentative and I understand it is because you were denied the ability to carry where you want but now you are just being ridiculous. The Mayor has on office in the town hall not the town park or in the public street....

Therefore I am pulling out of this conversation, take what I have said for what its worth, call Ralph Sherman and ask him if local authorities can ban the carry of pistols and revolvers for a permit holder in their town and see what he says...

Clay 11A · May 17, 2009

imported post

Bradco, Lank,

I see you two are in the Norwalk area. I'm in Darien and hoping to start open carrying. I was wondering if we could all meet up for lunch or dinner some day and open carry. I'd like to see some other people do it in public. Feel Free to e-mail me.

Clay

pheasant41 · May 18, 2009

imported post

count another in for an "open carry" lunch - I'm in westport, and would be glad to join in. pls feel free to email - paul

2fewdaysafield · May 20, 2009

imported post

Real good thread. And I will kick in my $0.02 for what its worth (which is probably less than $0.02).

Open carry in Ct (IMO) is legal in most circumstances if you have a pistol permit.

The fact that it is legal will not neccessarily keep you from being arrested and having your weapon confiscated.

If you do get arrested for OC, you have a good chance of being charged with a felony that carries a mandatory minimum sentence of no less than 2 years imprisonment.

The fact that OC is legal will not neccessarily protect you from arrest.

So my advice to the OP and anyone else reading this is to think long and hard before you OC in Ct regardless of what permits you hold.

I must say though, that I think the idea of ORGANIZED OC events (especially if you can bring along an attorney) would be a great way to to start to put an end to what I view as LE harrassment of permit holders exercising their rights.

Always remember, the fact that something is LEGAL does not mean some half dumb LE official won't arrest you. (BTW, my brother in law is a state cop and YUP, he's half dumb)

And if some half dumb LE does arrest you, it will cost you a bundle of cash to remind the state of your rights.

And NO! the state will not reimburse you your legal fees if the charges are dropped, the case is "nolle'd" or you are found not guilty.

Sad to say, but there is a big difference between "legal" and "you can be sure of not getting arrested".

nviper · May 21, 2009

imported post

i live in Naugatuck and have recently contacted the police department about open carry and have received this answer which i thought was a fairly reasonable one:

Sir,

Connecticut does not actually have a law stating a pistol must be carried in fashion that it is concealed to public view. However, it is generally accepted by society in this State that firearms, when carried in public view, are threatening and cause alarm. The permit holder who chooses to carry a firearm must do so in consideration of his/her environment and whether or not the citizens in proximity will be alarmed by the presence of the firearm. For example, carrying an exposed, holstered pistol on a gun range is reasonable, yet the same would not be reasonable in McDonalds. If the Naugatuck Police Dept. received a complaint regarding a person carrying an exposed firearm, our investigation would have to determine whether or not the exposed carry would have caused alarm in that particular environment, and if so, the charge of Breach of Peace (CGS 53a-181) would apply and an arrest is possible.

Obtaining a pistol permit is like obtaining a driver's license: When you get your driver's license, nobody tells you how to drive your car. When you get your pistol permit, Connecticut does not tell you how to carry your pistol. However, if you drive unreasonably or carry your pistol unreasonably, you can get into trouble.

I hope this has been helpful. If you have any further questions I recommend you contact the State Police Special Licenses and Firearms Unit at (860) 685-8290.

Lt. Joshua Bernegger
Naugatuck Police Dept.

bennettprescott · May 21, 2009

imported post

Your local LEO has a straw man argument. Driving one's car to McDonald's is just as legal as driving to the range. Carrying a gun to McDonald's is exactly the same. Waving a gun around when not on the firing line is a very different thing, but carrying a gun in a holster is not threatening, except to people who haven't thought it out.

nviper · May 21, 2009

imported post

you're right, when you use the driving example it really is more on the open carry side. i just wanted to find out from him how the department felt about oc. to me he seemed to take a stance in the middle and was pretty much saying well its legal as long as no one complains with just cause. he answered my email in a very politically correct way and that wasnt really what i was looking for but thats all i got.

romma · May 21, 2009

imported post

Code:

to me he seemed to take a stance in the middle and was pretty much saying well its legal as long as no one complains with just cause.

To me he took the stance that he will be more than happpy to arrest you, rather than tell somebody complaining that OC is legal and not to worry about it.

Iwouldn't like my chanceswith that policy. Not even close to the middle.

Since when does what "IS" legal have to be defined?

nviper · May 21, 2009

imported post

well either way i was looking for a more direct answer knowing that i wasn't going to get it. i usually cc anyway. i'm not looking for the headaches.

romma · May 21, 2009

imported post

I hear you nviper.

To me,the copcouldn't have been more plain.If he won't go to bat for your rights, and what is legal (since carrying open is not illegal, it must be legal) then he is no friend of gun owners..

GoldCoaster · May 22, 2009

imported post

There are clauses in the statute describing a breach of peace and one of those is "Intent to cause alarm". A safely holstered pistol (versus one being waved around) shows zero intent on the wearer to cause alarm.

If a safely holstered pistol caused alarm then why do people not freak out when they pass a uniformed police officer with an openly displayed firearm.

They can't have it both ways.

The person calling the dispatcher on a man (or woman when Mrs Lover gets her permit) with a gun call needs to be educated at the first point of contact.

Caller "there's a man with a gun"
Disp "what is he doing with it?"
Caller "He's not doing anything, he's shopping at stop and shop"
Disp "then he's within his rights to do so, if he starts waving it around please call us back asap"
Caller "urrr ok"

No police dispatch, no time wasted, no rights violated. seems easy enough to me.

Robert

nviper · May 22, 2009

imported post

amen to that. to bad that would never happen. you might get the swat team though.

JUMPMASTER · May 23, 2009

imported post

Time for an open carry meal at the Naugatuck McDonalds. Does Naugatuck even have a McDonalds?

Does this mean that Naugatuck PD all carry their weapons concealed so as not threaten the Naugatuck Society?

a question for you CT guys...

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

New member

New member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Opt-Out Members

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member