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Thread: Mandatory CPL

  1. #1
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    I received these e-mails today as part of the WDFW commision rules chanes. GET BUSY with calls to your respective government contacts.



    ----- Original Message -----
    From: WALTER D CHRISTENSEN
    To: protect2ndamd@comcast.net
    Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 6:42 PM
    Subject: Re: NO Mandatory Concealed Pistol License



    this afternoon in Oly the WDFW commission voted to accept the Dept's recommendation to require a Wash. State Concealed Pistol permit when either a muzzleloader hunter or an archery hunter carries a modern handgun during their respective hunting seasons. This rule will include open carry. The WDFW interim director, Phil Anderson, stated for the record that this was his decision to require this ruling. His verbal testimony should be available on-line on the dept's webpage in a few days. The basis for this decision is a direct result of the dept's enforcement chief, Bruce Bjork, request.



    From: James H Williams


    To: Fish and Wildlife Commission


    Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:57 AM


    Subject: NO Mandatory Concealed Pistol License


    [size=]


    [size=]

    [size=Proposed rule changes (WAC 232-12-051 and 232-12-054) will permit archery and muzzleloaders hunters to carry modern handguns but they must possess a concealed pistol license.]

    [size=]

    [size=These WAC changes violate Washington State Law. Washington State is an "open carry state." Washington State law does not require a concealed pistol license if the handgun is not concealed. The WDFW Commission can not require a license if Washington State law does not. If the hunter carries the handgun concealed, then and only then, would a concealed pistol license be required. For example, if the hand gun is strapped at the waist and visible, there is no requirement for a concealed pistol license.]

    [size=]

    [size=Archery and muzzleloaders should carry modern handguns in accordance with Washington State Law.]

    [size=]

  2. #2
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    I am not sure this is doing what you think it is.

    Currently those hunting with non-modern firearms may NOT carry a modern firearm during the archery or muzzleloader season. This is not a Title 9 violation, but it is part of the game code, just as the law regarding loaded long guns in vehicle is a game code issue.

    This is a step in the right direction, if you ask me.

    (b) It is illegal to carry or have in possession any firearm while in the field archery hunting, during the archery season specified for that area.
    Also, it is part of the WAC, as far as I know.

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    I agree this is a step in the right direction as farm as being able to carry during those seasons, but I think you missed the point.

    It would be a mandatory permit to carry whether concealed or open. OC is legal in Washington and they are in violation of preemption by requiring a license to OC.

    just received this addendum:

    whoops, I forgot the specifics:

    the new wordage will appear in:

    WAC 232-12-051 Muzzleloading firearms

    WAC 232-12-054 Archery Requirements

    it will appear in the new 2009 rules and regs pamphlet.....and in the individual WACs.

    walt

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    Upside, an acknowledgment from a state agency that this is an OC state. Downside, requiring a permit to carry certain guns while hunting with certain weapons.

    OTOH, special hunting privileges are given to those using muzzleloaders and archery, and there is concern the carrying of modern firearms during those special seasons could be used to take game in violation of law.

    But OTOH I don't think a person's rights should be abridged just because they are hunting with a bow and arrow.

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    OTOH #1, fear of game being taken, is prior restraint.

    MD

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    One other thing to mention.

    State Law currently exempts persons engaging in OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES such as HUNTING or HIKING from the requirement to have a CPL when carrying a concealed weapon.

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    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    One other thing to mention.

    State Law currently exempts persons engaging in OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES such as HUNTING or HIKING from the requirement to have a CPL when carrying a concealed weapon.
    +1

    This is exactly what is going though my head too. I realize they are a state agency but the intent of the pre-emption law is to give no one but the house and senate the ability to control firearm possession.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Do you have a reference to this law regarding exemption when hunting/hiking?

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    Solar wrote:
    Do you have a reference to this law regarding exemption when hunting/hiking?
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060

    section 8.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    EOD wrote:
    I am not sure this is doing what you think it is.

    Currently those hunting with non-modern firearms may NOT carry a modern firearm during the archery or muzzleloader season. This is not a Title 9 violation, but it is part of the game code, just as the law regarding loaded long guns in vehicle is a game code issue.

    This is a step in the right direction, if you ask me.

    (b) It is illegal to carry or have in possession any firearm while in the field archery hunting, during the archery season specified for that area.
    Also, it is part of the WAC, as far as I know.
    Do you have a link to the long gun law? I've never actually read it and I can't seem to find it.

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    Do you have a link to the long gun law?
    Here you are. RCW 77.15.460

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.460



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    So hashing through the various postings in this thread I think I can safely summarize as follows:

    Washington law currently allows a person to carry a concealed firearm while hunting or hiking without a CPL per RCW 9.41.070.

    There is a portion of the WAC that prohibits one from carrying a modern firearm during archery or muzzleloader hunting (WAC 232-12-051 and 232-12-054)

    These WAC provisions apparently violate the RCW's preemption on firearms law, and directly contradict the RCW cited above.

    The agency appears to be proposing a rule that fixes a problem created by a rule that was passed in direct violation of state preemption.

    Perhaps someone has insight into why state agencies can pass rules that violation state preemption. This appears to be a common problem. It can be seen in the university bans on firearms and in various administrative codes that ban firearms even though the RCW says that they can't.

    Since this is an ongoing question I wish someone in government could explain to us how this works.

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    heresolong, I'll take a shot at it.

    RCW 9.41.290 says, "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state", rather than "The legislature of state of Washington...", and then goes on to prohibit "Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities" from passing laws in excess of state law (except where expressly permitted to.) Notably absent from this list is any reference to "state agencies".


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    Talked to an enforcement officer yesterday and he said RCW 9.41.060 (8) did not apply when hunting with a muzzleloader or a bow. It WAS illegal to carry because you were not following the game law. NOW you need a CPL to carry while hunting black powder and bow.

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    StatTheCat wrote:
    Talked to an enforcement officer yesterday and he said RCW 9.41.060 (8) did not apply when hunting with a muzzleloader or a bow. It WAS illegal to carry because you were not following the game law. NOW you need a CPL to carry while hunting black powder and bow.
    Ask him to explain how game law would ever trump state law. Especially with regards to preemption.

    Getting legal advise from a law enforcement officer ranks right up there with, "Dude, I read it on the internet". Best advice is to research anything you hear.

    On a side note, welcome to OCDO! Take the time to browse around, I learn new things on this forum everyday.
    DISCLAIMER: This post may contain libertarian ideas and language that are consistent with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, including a belief in liberty, rule of law, and natural rights. It may also contain opinions critical of government and the tyrannies being committed by such. If you are an authoritarian, statist, or other freedom hater, side effects of reading this post may include high blood pressure, loose stool, severe genital itching, and diarrhea of the mouth.

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    WAC 232-12-054,

    (1) Rules pertaining to all archery:

    (a) It is unlawful for any person to carry or have in his possession any firearm while in the field archery hunting, during an archery season specified for that area.
    Here is the wac in regards to this.

    Preemption does not mean that there can be no other laws. Just means that the STATE is the only one that can make more restrictive laws.

    Worse case scenario here is that we have two laws (RCW 9.41.060 and WAC 232-12-054), bot h made by the STATE, that are contradictory to each other.

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    kenshin wrote:
    StatTheCat wrote:
    Talked to an enforcement officer yesterday and he said RCW 9.41.060 (8) did not apply when hunting with a muzzleloader or a bow. It WAS illegal to carry because you were not following the game law. NOW you need a CPL to carry while hunting black powder and bow.
    Ask him to explain how game law would ever trump state law. Especially with regards to preemption.

    Getting legal advise from a law enforcement officer ranks right up there with, "Dude, I read it on the internet". Best advice is to research anything you hear.

    On a side note, welcome to OCDO! Take the time to browse around, I learn new things on this forum everyday.
    A game law IS a state law. Not made in the same way, but it carries the force of the state with it just the same.

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    EOD wrote:
    Do you have a link to the long gun law?
    Here you are. RCW 77.15.460

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.460

    Thanks.

    I hate this law. I mean, it's a part of the fish and game regulations, yet everyone across the state has to abide by it. Ridiculous.

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    Thank you and I did

    Hunting equipment: Hunters using muzzleloaders or archery equipment will be allowed to carry a handgun for personal protection if they have a concealed pistol permit. Hunters may also use black powder pistols to hunt during muzzleloader seasons.

    http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=apr0609b

  20. #20
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    Thank you and I did

    Hunting equipment: Hunters using muzzleloaders or archery equipment will be allowed to carry a handgun for personal protection if they have a concealed pistol permit. Hunters may also use black powder pistols to hunt during muzzleloader seasons.

    http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=apr0609b

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