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Thread: Mis-information on OC by CPL instructors

  1. #1
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    Hi all - new here.

    I obtained my CPL in 2007. My instructor was adamant about concealment being required by law and OC not an option.

    Silly me, I believed him. I do not think it unreasonable for anyone totake that kind of information as being accurate given the venue it was presented in.

    How can someone licensed to and charged with such an important task either a) be so ignorant of the actual laws or b) deliberately mis-state or lie to further their own personal beliefs or agenda?

    Has anyone here ever gone back and questioned their instructor on this point? I have read many posts about people being told OC was against the law in their CPL classes, but did not see anything about anyone going back to their instructor and asking for explanation on why someone who is teaching gun laws for a living would make such a gross error.

    Would like to hear responses before I do just that with my instructor (politely, of course). Frankly, I'm pretty flabbergasted about the whole thing.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I haven't seen or heard of anyone going back and asking either. I don't recall my instructor being adamant about keeping it concealed, so I never thought about calling him out on it. I'd love to hear a response. You can find a lot of information here to include in a letter.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I postd this last December as a guide for CPL instructors on OC. You could give this to the instructor yo had and pass it on to any other instructors you know.



    CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

    We often hear about CPL instructors telling their students that either open carry is illegal or it’s legal but you will be charged with brandishing. Both are incorrect. I recommend that CPLinstructors touch on open carry using or modifying the outline below.

    1) Open carry is legal in Michigan, period.

    2) Having a CPL does not relieve you of your right to open carry; it allows you the choice to conceal your handgun if you wish

    3) A gun in a holster is not brandishing. (AG opinions Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002
    ). Brandishing is defined as “1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.”[/b]


    [/b]4) Based on two AG opinions and the Michigan State Police a CPL holder can open carry a handgun in the gun free zones listed in 750.234d. (AG OpinionsNo. 7097 January 11, 2002and No. 7097 January 11, 2002 ). (“Your analysis is correct.]Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan [/b][/b]State [/b]Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441.) [/b]There is no known case law to support or overturn these opinions[/b]

    5) No local ordinances can ban firearm possession (includes both open and concealed carry (with a CPL) on or in public property due to the 1990 preemption law 750 123.1102. This was upheld by The Michigan Court of Appeals on April 29, 2003; v No. 242237. Any local ordinance that bans firearms on or in public property is illegal. State and Federal laws may apply.

    6) Though disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    Disturbing the peace deals with any acts in a violent, boisterous, turbulent, quarrelsome, indecent, or disorderly manner, or to use profane, obscene, or vulgar language, or to commit any act, or to do anything to disturb the good order, peace and dignity of the city, its inhabitants or other persons. Disorderly Conduct deals with being intoxicated in a public place and to either endanger directly the safety of another person, or of property, or to act in a manner that causes a public disturbance.

    7) Open carry does not make you a target of crime. There is no creditable evidence that this has every happened to a citizen. Police officers and security guards have been targeted due to the nature of their jobs. There is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that suggests that open carry deters crime. A US Department of justice report found that criminals target those that are or are believed to be unarmed over an armed victim.

    8) Open carry allows for a larger caliber and more rounds. Faster draw. In warm climates and in summer open carry is conducive to a more comfortable carry.

    9) If you open carrya good retention holster is recommended, as well as being aware of your surroundings.

    Ultimately the choice to open or conceal carry is the individuals as there are advantages with both methods.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
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    Venator wrote:
    I postd this last December as a guide for CPL instructors on OC.* You could give this to the instructor yo had and pass it on to any other instructors you know.

    *

    CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

    We often hear about CPL instructors telling their students that either open carry is illegal or it’s legal but you will be charged with brandishing.* Both are incorrect. I recommend that CPL*instructors touch on open carry using or modifying the outline below.

    1)* Open carry is legal in Michigan, period.

    2)* Having a CPL does not relieve you of your right to open carry; it allows you the choice to conceal your handgun if you wish

    3)* A gun in a holster is not brandishing. (AG Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002
    ).* Brandishing is defined as* “1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously.* A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.”[/b]


    [/b]4)* Based on the AG opinion and the Michigan State Police Legal Update a CPL holder can open carry a handgun in the gun free zones listed in 750.234d.* (AG Opinion*No. 7097 January 11, 2002). (“Your analysis is correct.*]Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders.* The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol.* Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”*Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan [/b][/b]State [/b]Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441.)* [/b]There is no known case law to support or overturn these opinions[/b]

    5)* No local ordinances can ban firearm possession (includes both open and concealed carry (with a CPL) on or in public property due to the 1990 preemption law 750 123.1102.* This was upheld by The Michigan Court of Appeals on April 29, 2003; v No. 242237.* Any local ordinance that bans firearms on or in public property is illegal.* State and Federal laws may apply.

    6)* Though disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry.** Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct.* The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    Disturbing the peace deals with any acts in a violent, boisterous, turbulent, quarrelsome, indecent, or disorderly manner, or to use profane, obscene, or vulgar language, or to commit any act, or to do anything to disturb the good order, peace and dignity of the city, its inhabitants or other persons.* Disorderly Conduct deals with being intoxicated in a public place and to either endanger directly the safety of another person, or of property, or to act in a manner that causes a public disturbance. *

    7)* Open carry does not make you a target of crime.* There is no creditable evidence that this has every happened to a citizen.* Police officers and security guards have been targeted due to the nature of their jobs.* There is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that suggests that open carry deters crime.* A US Department of justice report found that criminals target those that are or are believed to be unarmed over an armed victim.

    8)* Open carry allows for a larger caliber and more rounds.* Faster draw. In warm climates and in summer open carry is conducive to a more comfortable carry.

    9)* If you open carry*a good retention holster is recommended, as well as being aware of your surroundings.

    Ultimately the choice to open or conceal carry is the individuals as there are advantages with both methods.
    You had two places where it supposedly mentioned more than one AG opinion, then didn't. I corrected both of those above.

  5. #5
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    Venator wrote:
    I postd this last December as a guide for CPL instructors on OC. You could give this to the instructor yo had and pass it on to any other instructors you know.



    CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

    We often hear about CPL instructors telling their students that either open carry is illegal or it’s legal but you will be charged with brandishing. Both are incorrect. I recommend that CPLinstructors touch on open carry using or modifying the outline below. . . . . . .

    Thank you for that Venator.

    Have you ever sent it directly to or had a conversation with any instructor that was reported to have taught that OC is illegal, or that CPL required you to conceal at all times?

    Given the thorough and immediate direct contact I see many of you here making to LEO's who are uninformed, I'm surprised if no one has directly contacted any instructors.

    I've read here extensively and the misinformation by instructors seems to be more the norm than the exception.

    I'm curious to know what any past responses may have been before I track down the instructor I went to and compose an email to him.

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    My Prerogative wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    I postd this last December as a guide for CPL instructors on OC. You could give this to the instructor yo had and pass it on to any other instructors you know.



    CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

    We often hear about CPL instructors telling their students that either open carry is illegal or it’s legal but you will be charged with brandishing. Both are incorrect. I recommend that CPLinstructors touch on open carry using or modifying the outline below. . . . . . .

    Thank you for that Venator.

    Have you ever sent it directly to or had a conversation with any instructor that was reported to have taught that OC is illegal, or that CPL required you to conceal at all times?

    Given the thorough and immediate direct contact I see many of you here making to LEO's who are uninformed, I'm surprised if no one has directly contacted any instructors.

    I've read here extensively and the misinformation by instructors seems to be more the norm than the exception.

    I'm curious to know what any past responses may have been before I track down the instructor I went to and compose an email to him.
    We deal with public officials as CPL instructors are often private and can teach what they want. It would be up the the students to challenge their course's. If you have a problem with a CPL instructor you could complain to the county gun boards.

    MOC has it's hands full dealing with illegal activity of our public servant's and have little extra time or resources to correct all the private sector business, that may or may not be breaking the law. We do what we can but at some point the people have to stand up and take action themselves.

    Send in a complaint or talk to the instructors and set them straight.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Send in a complaint or talk to the instructors and set them straight.
    +1

    And, if you write or talk to aninstructor, I suggest that you make it clear that you are open to the instructor informing you thatthey teach correctly nowbefore you post on gunforums aboutyour truthful dissatisfaction with your experience.

    Especially with most CCW instructors, word-of-mouth recommendations and negative reviews have a big impact on their business.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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  8. #8
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    DanM wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Send in a complaint or talk to the instructors and set them straight.
    +1

    And, if you write or talk to aninstructor, I suggest that you make it clear that you are open to the instructor informing you thatthey teach correctly nowbefore you post on gunforums aboutyour truthful dissatisfaction with your experience.

    Especially with most CCW instructors, word-of-mouth recommendations and negative reviews have a big impact on their business.
    No to worry - I am not a flamer. That kind of stuff always comes back to bite you.

    I'd just like an explanation (and an apology??).

    I am pretty miffed about it, because my profession has me in un-airconditioned circumstances most of the summer and I have to carry.

    It's too hot to wear clothing to conceal so I've been wearing a miserably uncomfortable fanny pack holster.

    I would have OC'd for the last 2 years had I known it was an option. Prefer that for thedeterrent factor anyway. Glad I found this site.

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