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ABraCadabra Store

Carpetbagger

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RedKnightt wrote:
"I've confirmed through our Chief Administrative Officer and Director of Real Estate that we do not have clauses or amendments to leases that would nullify the rules of private property owners. In other words, if an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibits open/concealed carrying of a legal firearm, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules."

Let's take this"rule" to its logical extension...

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to Jews, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to anyone wearing a t-shirt with an anti-American slogan, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to anyone on welfare, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

Anyone think these would fly?
 

darthmord

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Grapeshot wrote:
rob99vmi04 wrote:
Heres a stupid question. Can somebody who works for the ABC deny the purchase of alcohol.

I''ll relate the purchase of a firearm, working in a gun shop an employee could kill a gun sale for any reason the employee doesn't feel nice and fluffy about. Generally this reason was, used if it was a suspected straw purchase, drunk, or if you got a really uneasy feeling because you suspected the invidiual was going to do something, any employee could kill sale.

Based on these same princeple, can an employee for the ABC kill a liquor sale?
Most definitely. In fact under some circumstances would be obligated to do so - under age, drunk and I'm sure others.

Can somebody cite this - no time know.

Yata hey
There's always the right to refuse service. I've seen stores (various ones) use that to great effect when they had a problem customer.
 

Spectre

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Having worked for VA ABC myself I can confirm he is correct. HE couldn't carry a firearm while working. Customers though are not barred from carrying in the store.
 

Spectre

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rob99vmi04 wrote:
Heres a stupid question. Can somebody who works for the ABC deny the purchase of alcohol.

I''ll relate the purchase of a firearm, working in a gun shop an employee could kill a gun sale for any reason the employee doesn't feel nice and fluffy about. Generally this reason was, used if it was a suspected straw purchase, drunk, or if you got a really uneasy feeling because you suspected the invidiual was going to do something, any employee could kill sale.

Based on these same princeple, can an employee for the ABC kill a liquor sale?
Absolutely! I had refused sale of alchohal many times to customers. It's the same thing when I worked in a gun shop. Reasonable suspicioun would cause my spidey sense to go off and the sale was immidiately canceled. Of course they would get upset/curse/threaten, but I was always backed up by my higher ups.
 

DKSuddeth

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danbus wrote:
Quite the short and sweet'n'sour experience at the ABC store here in Colonial Heights.

A friend and I went to get some Wild Turkey. While we were discussing who drank the last bottle of tasty beverage, a ABC employee walked up to me and stated "I couldn't have that". My friend thought he was talking about the WT in my hands (lol), but I just confirmed that he was speaking about the firearm. I asked him why and he stated that ABCs don't allow firearms in the store. I then stated to him (not in the nicest most politest way), that Virgina runs ABC therefore making it a public entity and that he could call the cops and that they would come and not be able to do anything. I then continued on to purchase some WT and left.

He made no attempt to call the PD.
I've decided that if I ever move to Virginia, i'm doing everything in my power to become Danbus' next best friend. :D
 

rob99vmi04

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Spectre wrote:
Having worked for VA ABC myself I can confirm he is correct. HE couldn't carry a firearm while working.

Can ABC even do that?
Regarding no carry and employees.


How is ABC getting around Pre-emption?
 

rlh2005

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Spotsylvania County, Virginia, USA
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rob99vmi04 wrote:
Spectre wrote:
Having worked for VA ABC myself I can confirm he is correct. HE couldn't carry a firearm while working.

Can ABC even do that?
Regarding no carry and employees.


How is ABC getting around Pre-emption?
Spectre is saying the VABC store employee is prevented from carrying at work due to employment rules. There is no preemption issue since Commonwealth law allows state agencies to set employment rules to include banning firearms while at work.
 

RedKnightt

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Grapeshot wrote:
RedKnightt wrote:
I agree that is arguable. I suspect it has simply never been argued before. I've of two minds on this. I don't want the state (or any locality) to use private property rules as a way around preemption, but I'm in favor of the rights of property owners to decide what goes on their own land.
This was tried in Norfolk with Danbus at Waterside - didn't fly there either though the decision was not in a high enough court to have any real impact.

Yata hey
The difference in this case is that Waterside is owned by a government agency, and is therefore public land. A Va ABC store on private property owned by XYZ Development Corp is not public land, and the property owner can place restrictions, as long as those restrictions are legal (see below).

Carpetbagger wrote:
Let's take this"rule" to its logical extension...

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to Jews, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.
Religion is a protected class under civil rights laws.

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to anyone wearing a t-shirt with an anti-American slogan, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to anyone on welfare, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

Anyone think these would fly?
These would fly for non-governmental actors. "We reserve the right to refuse service". It would probably take a court case to sort out if Va ABC could go that far (public entity acting as a private vendor), but I think the point on those are moot, as it strikes me as extremely unlikely Va ABC would ever sign such a lease with those restrictions. They do have legal departments review those.

If anyone has specific questions, I could forward them on to my contact at ABC. She's currently checking into a couple of things about ABC-On licenses and lease boundaries for me and seems quite happy to help.
 

Spectre

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rlh2005 wrote:
rob99vmi04 wrote:
Spectre wrote:
Having worked for VA ABC myself I can confirm he is correct. HE couldn't carry a firearm while working.

Can ABC even do that?
 Regarding no carry and employees.
 

How is ABC getting around  Pre-emption?
Spectre is saying the VABC store employee is prevented from carrying at work due to employment rules.  There is no preemption issue since Commonwealth law allows state agencies to set employment rules to include banning firearms while at work.

Bingo!
 

Carpetbagger

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RedKnightt wrote:
If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to anyone wearing a t-shirt with an anti-American slogan, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

If an ABC store has a lease with a private property/shopping center owner that prohibitsselling alcohol to anyone on welfare, as a tenant we are subject to the private property owner's rules.

Anyone think these would fly?
These would fly for non-governmental actors. "We reserve the right to refuse service". It would probably take a court case to sort out if Va ABC could go that far (public entity acting as a private vendor), but I think the point on those are moot, as it strikes me as extremely unlikely Va ABC would ever sign such a lease with those restrictions. They do have legal departments review those.

VA ABC is a governmental entity, period.

Of course it is unlikely that VA ABC would sign such a lease, but these examples simply point out the absurdity of thinking VA ABC could use its lease terms to justify taking action it otherwise could not take. (See http://www.answers.com/topic/reductio-ad-absurdum)
 

RedKnightt

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Carpetbagger wrote:
VA ABC is a governmental entity, period. Of course it is unlikely that VA ABC would sign such a lease, but these examples simply point out the absurdity of thinking VA ABC could use its lease terms to justify taking action it otherwise could not take. (See http://www.answers.com/topic/reductio-ad-absurdum)

Okay, you've lost me. :p I'm having trouble figuring out what point you're heading for.
 

RedKnightt

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Neplusultra wrote:
I thought this thread was about a store that sold alcohol *and* guns. That would be great! :D
Don't forget tobacco. BATFE should mean "Bob's Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Emporium". :lol: Could we have a poker room in the back, too, please?
 

Neplusultra

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RedKnightt wrote:
Neplusultra wrote:
I thought this thread was about a store that sold alcohol *and* guns. That would be great! :D
Don't forget tobacco. BATFE should mean "Bob's Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Emporium". :lol: Could we have a poker room in the back, too, please?
Do you think the ATF would approve that license :^)?
 

Spectre

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Neplusultra wrote:
RedKnightt wrote:
Neplusultra wrote:
I thought this thread was about a store that sold alcohol *and* guns.  That would be great! :D
Don't forget tobacco. BATFE should mean "Bob's Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Emporium". :lol: Could we have a poker room in the back, too, please?
Do you think the ATF would approve that license :^)?

BATFE should already be a convenience store anyway. One can always hope and wish upon a star!:D
 

W.E.G.

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Wal-Mart sells alcohol, tobacco and guns.

A lot of them also sell sex(ual aids), drugs and rock and roll.
 

skidmark

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I know that nobody ever listens to me :banghead::cuss:, but when it's all over and done with someone will pop up and say something to the effect that they thought I said the answer a while ago.;)

Go look at the post made Posted: Mon Apr 6th, 2009 10:21 am over on page 1. ABC stores are not "bound" by some private property owner's fuzzy feelings about firearms or other stuff they don't want going on or coming into their shop.

Then, over at
Neplusultra wrote:
I thought this thread was about a store that sold alcohol *and* guns. That would be great! :D
Don't forget tobacco. BATFE should mean "Bob's Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Emporium". :lol: Could we have a poker room in the back, too, please?
I'll go along with that asa long as nobody tries to start any of that Texas Hold'em stuff back there.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

Spectre

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skidmark wrote:
I know that nobody ever listens to me :banghead::cuss:, but when it's all over and done with someone will pop up and say something to the effect that they thought I said the answer a while ago.;)



stay safe.

skidmark

Aww! I listen to you Skid, you have even have insightful little tidbits from time to time.:cool:
 

Neplusultra

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Just visited our local ABC store. They moved !! (Tells you how often I go there) So I went to the new location, OCing of course, and asked the lady why they moved.

Ha! Here's what she said. She said that since the other store in the small strip mall had closed down they were there all by themselves and saw that as a security risk. So they moved to a new store front next to Walmart! I said isn't it great that I can carry in here, as I was, but the state says you can't. I guess they're saying to you, "You're on your own".

The state is more concerned with liability issues than whether their employee gets killed or raped. Makes sense to me.
 

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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Neplusultra wrote:
Just visited our local ABC store. They moved !! (Tells you how often I go there) So I went to the new location, OCing of course, and asked the lady why they moved.

Ha! Here's what she said. She said that since the other store in the small strip mall had closed down they were there all by themselves and saw that as a security risk. So they moved to a new store front next to Walmart! I said isn't it great that I can carry in here, as I was, but the state says you can't. I guess they're saying to you, "You're on your own".

The state is more concerned with liability issues than whether their employee gets killed or raped. Makes sense to me.
What they are saying is that the BG's can carry butsome of the GG's can't. Since OC is legal and it would be unlawful to ask stop anyone and ask for ID then that means anyone except employees can OC in an ABC store unless they are trying to rob the place. Sounds backwards to me that it is OK for a criminal to be allowed to carry but the employees can't defend themselves.
 
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