2 Killed At Indoor Gun Range

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I see the anti's using this to try and either ban rentals at ranges or require background chakes at ranges.

EDIT: It does not say who rented it. I misread the article before I posted.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30109090/



CASSELBERRY, Fla. - A central Florida woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself at a shooting range wrote in suicide notes to her boyfriend that she was trying to save her son.
"I'm so sorry," Marie Moore wrote several times. "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."
She signed two of the notes "Failed Queen."
Authorities said Wednesday they still had no motive for the murder-suicide that shocked fellow customers and employees at the Shoot Straight range in Casselberry, about 10 miles north of Orlando, on Sunday.
"We have no clue. I don't even want to begin to speculate," said Deputy Chief Bill McNeil of the Casselberry Police Department.
Son shot in back of head
The gun range's security video shows 20-year-old Mitchell Moore taking aim at a target in a booth when his mother, 44, walks up behind him and points a gun at the back of his head. In the next frame, the son is seen falling to the ground and a nearby patron appears to alert others as he points to the unseen carnage.
The gun used was rented at the range.
According to a police report, earlier footage from the surveillance video shows the mother and son taking turns shooting and talking with other customers in the adjacent lane. "They seem to be getting along fine," one of the responding officers said.
The son died at the scene. Marie Moore was still alive when officers arrived at the range but later died at a hospital.
Woman reportedly had mental illness
Mitchell's father, Charles Moore, told police that Marie Moore had a history of mental illness and had previously attempted suicide and been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital in 2002 under the state's Baker Act.
Larry Anderson, a manager at Shoot Straight, said it's unclear whether the Moores had been to the range before, but they weren't regular customers. The range requires that customers fill out a form with a series of questions, including whether they have ever been convicted of a felony or been declared mentally unstable. But it has no way to verify the information.
Anderson defended the range's policies, saying: "If someone acts right, we have to assume they are right."
Based on the writings and audio recordings that he's seen in the media, Anderson said, it's clear that Marie Moore was "bent on doing it."
"Sometimes, like what happens Sunday, you have no control," Anderson said. "There's nothing you can do to prevent it."

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I wonder if they'd try to ban electric cars if someone rented an electric car and ran over their whole family?

Probably not since their ire is never equally applied.

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canadian wrote:

It's an ugly grey area, though. Where do the rights of the individual to be free from government "mental hygene" laws end, and the public's right to be free from violent psychopaths begin? How much responsibility rests on the shoulders of the family? What remedy is there when the family refuses that responsibility?

We've all seen one of those lunatics and said to ourselves "One of these days, he/she is going to kill someone." But is that enough? And who gets to make that determination?

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Mental illness is just that, an illness. I'm annoyed when people show up at work with the flu and get me sick too, yet it's a societal norm to treat sickness like it doesn't exist. We don't have laws restricting the physically sick (and in fact society encourages the opposite of restriction), so there's no reason to believe anyone would support laws restricting the mentally ill. Yet,people with bothphysical and mentalconditionscan effect you and I in negatives ways, up to (and including) death. Both need proper care and both should be restricted in how they're allowed to interact with the rest of society as long as they are ill.

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AWDstylez wrote:

canadian wrote:

It's an ugly grey area, though. Where do the rights of the individual to be free from government "mental hygene" laws end, and the public's right to be free from violent psychopaths begin? How much responsibility rests on the shoulders of the family? What remedy is there when the family refuses that responsibility?

We've all seen one of those lunatics and said to ourselves "One of these days, he/she is going to kill someone." But is that enough? And who gets to make that determination?

Click to expand...

Mental illness is just that, an illness. I'm annoyed when people show up at work with the flu and get me sick too, yet it's a societal norm to treat sickness like it doesn't exist. We don't have laws restricting the physically sick (and in fact society encourages the opposite of restriction), so there's no reason to believe anyone would support laws restricting the mentally ill. Yet,people with bothphysical and mentalconditionscan effect you and I in negatives ways, up to (and including) death. Both need proper care and both should be restricted in how they're allowed to interact with the rest of society as long as they are ill.

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That's interesting. I don't know which state it is, but I read it in a post not too long ago. They have a law making it a misdemeanor to intentionally expose another person to any infectious disease.

While I am sure that this was enacted due to someone intentionally giving someon AIDS or some other potentially deadly disease, it seems that as written, you could be charged if you intentionally went to work and exposed a co-worker to the common cold.

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The mental illness issue seems to be playing itself out in alot of the recent gun related violence.

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Pagan wrote:

The mental illness issue seems to be playing itself out in alot of the recent gun related violence.

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Indeed it has...almost all of the recent shooters suffered from mental illness and some were being treated with psychotropic medicine. Have you ever read the side effects from these types of drugs. It leads to just this type of thing.

The two big issues with mental illness one of which has been addressed and that is government mandates now in effect require Insurance Companies to cover mental health but it still leaves thousands of others who can't get treatment since they are uninsured.

The second most important issues is people get prescribe these psychotropic meds which can drastically change your behavior, stop getting the counseling needed to accompany any type of med they are prescribed. People are misconceived in thinking meds alone can heal their mental illness. Counseling also has to play a major role in recovery or maintenance.

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the wheeelman wrote:

Pagan wrote:

The mental illness issue seems to be playing itself out in alot of the recent gun related violence.

Click to expand...

Indeed it has...almost all of the recent shooters suffered from mental illness and some were being treated with psychotropic medicine. Have you ever read the side effects from these types of drugs. It leads to just this type of thing.

The two big issues with mental illness one of which has been addressed and that is government mandates now in effect require Insurance Companies to cover mental health but it still leaves thousands of others who can't get treatment since they are uninsured.

The second most important issues is people get prescribe these psychotropic meds which can drastically change your behavior, stop getting the counseling needed to accompany any type of med they are prescribed. People are misconceived in thinking meds alone can heal their mental illness. Counseling also has to play a major role in recovery or maintenance.

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x infinity

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Unfourtunately if you do go for treatment, then you loose youre 2A rights.
So as long as you are crazy then you are not denide, but if you get cured you
will get blackballed.
The system as always encourages reckless and dangerous behaivior in an
attempt to create problems so they can 'fix' them.


But could it have been an accidental shooting, and then shot self in horror over it?

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SlackwareRobert wrote:

Unfourtunately if you do go for treatment, then you loose youre 2A rights.

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Hmmm, I wonder why that is? If you aren't responsible enough to know that you shouldn't be banging everyone in town without a couple dozen condoms onwhen you have AIDS, then the government is going to have to step in and control your stupid behavior. If you're experiencing psychosis or severe mental issues and you're not responsible (or not in your right mind) enough to restrict your own access to firearms then... you guessed it... the government is going to have to step in and restrict you.

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The standard for mental illness and gun rights is a legalistic one. Question 11.f. on form 4473 reads:

"Have you even been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

So - voluntary treatment for any mental illness - as long as you are not determined by some judicial review process to constitute a danger - is not of itself prohibiting. Likewise, confinement for purposes of observation or evaluation, without meeting these standards, is not itself prohiniting.

That said, I have to wonder that there will be political pressure to reevaluate this standard if enough marginal mental cases end up acting out violently.

-ljp

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Then I guess those of us with "moderate" mental issues will have to turn in all our guns then?

-- John D.

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Let's hope not. I have schizoid tendencies, which has nothing to do with schizophrenia, but just means that I'm somewhat misanthropic. This manifests itself in avoidance, not confrontation. I doubt some congressman is going to know the difference though.

-ljp

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Yes, "mental illness" as a whole is still in the Dark Ages whenit comes to the average person's reaction to that term, let alone ignorant politicians. AndI must also say itseems to be true even when it comes to "treatment" for same by the "professionals," who often seem to be more akin to witch-doctors on fishing expeditions, guessing what's going on with someone whilethey experiment on a patient with assorted meds.

People with depression usually turn any violence inward (toward themselves - suicide) rather than outward by shooting others. So the few shooters lately who were described as "depressed" is quite disturbing as presently, depression in itself is not considered a "dangerous" mental illness as say, paranoid schizophrenia is. And of course, it's usually (but not always) combat vets who have an assortment of disorders that COULD be potential trouble: TBI, IED and PTSD...and these numbers of people are increasing

I'm a vet myselfand have been diagnosed with depression...so it's quite a can o' worms here...

-- John D.

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You are correct about depression...the issue is probably rooted in two other causes. One anti-depressants or two possible PTSD caused by effects of the crumbling economy...loss of job, family, over the top lifestyle, etc!!!!!!

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

Casselberry police said the two went to the range Sunday afternoon to target shoot.

Officerssaid there were no reported arguments between the two before the shooting. However, witnesses on the scene say the two were acting strangely before the incident.

There were between eight and 10 people who witnessed the incident.

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I know that what I am about to say will sound strange, but I believe that this could be the act of some very committed anti gun activists. Before you say that is crazy and ridiculous, you should look into recent (last 40 years) events where activists have immolated themselves, or killed themselves in some way to protest some government or war or to make some other kind of point. While most of us are fairly conservative in our viewpoints and would likely never think of doing something like this, liberals have an extreme faction which would do something like this to advance their cause.

The fact that there were no arguments between the two, but that they acted strangely leads me to believe this was planned.

Of course, it could have been as simple as just an insane woman giving herself a very late abortion.

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Legba wrote:

The standard for mental illness and gun rights is a legalistic one. Question 11.f. on form 4473 reads:

"Have you even been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

So - voluntary treatment for any mental illness - as long as you are not determined by some judicial review process to constitute a danger - is not of itself prohibiting. Likewise, confinement for purposes of observation or evaluation, without meeting these standards, is not itself prohiniting.

That said, I have to wonder that there will be political pressure to reevaluate this standard if enough marginal mental cases end up acting out violently.

-ljp

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Tell that to all the "DV" people stripped retroactively of thier rights.
If you get yourself in the system, these anti's will not stop till you loose your rights
for life. Plus the added danger of getting an anti-gun shrink and you are realy
screwed over for life. It is the medical assoc. nuts who claim guns are "bad medicine"
and need to be rstricted to perscrption only. Which by coincidence they will
not prescribe.

I think it was in the NO forum of the poor guy trying to get a permit
because of a presription he once took, and the docs won't cooperate in getting
the needed release forms filled out.

No if a person is a danger to others then the state can show that and restrict that
person. I wouldn't trust this government to regulate peanut butter, (oops, they
blew that one to didn't they).

I am just grateful that Kalifornia doesn't allow CC with all those medicated pot heads
running around.:uhoh:

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Thing is though, I have never seen someone stoned on weed to be violent...just laid back and mellow. Of course, other drugs like crack and such are a completely different story.

It's the damn drunkswho often get confrontational and violent...and alcohol is legal.

-- John D.

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Plenty of medical marijuana patients have LTCs here in California, as well as in Oregon. In fact, the courts routinely take the patients' side on this issue, asserting that if it is legal to possess marijuana for health reasons there can be no valid Constitutional justification to all of a sudden deny second amendment rights and privileges. There are no more shootouts in the streets than with any other law-abiding citizens.

There's nothing dangerous about nonaggressive people carrying guns. TBH slackware, I'm a little ashamed to read such a comment from a regular member of this board.

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the wheeelman wrote:

Pagan wrote:

The mental illness issue seems to be playing itself out in alot of the recent gun related violence.

Click to expand...

Indeed it has...almost all of the recent shooters suffered from mental illness and some were being treated with psychotropic medicine. Have you ever read the side effects from these types of drugs. It leads to just this type of thing.

The two big issues with mental illness one of which has been addressed and that is government mandates now in effect require Insurance Companies to cover mental health but it still leaves thousands of others who can't get treatment since they are uninsured.

The second most important issues is people get prescribe these psychotropic meds which can drastically change your behavior, stop getting the counseling needed to accompany any type of med they are prescribed. People are misconceived in thinking meds alone can heal their mental illness. Counseling also has to play a major role in recovery or maintenance.

Click to expand...

And how many children are now being medicated because they don't fit in with behavioral norms? If I had been born a few years later, who knows what meds I would be on today? Instead, I have become a reasonably responsible citizen whose main mental health issues seem to be a distrust of authority and a penchant for believing in the Constitution while exercising my rights.