Michigan Border patrol question

Venator · Apr 8, 2009

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[/b]Submitted for your discussion:[/b]

As the [/b]US [/b]government continues to expand their authority and allows US border patrols to set up suspicious-less checkpoints 100 miles from the [/b]US[/b] border, I have a few concerns.SCOTUS has ruled that these internal checkpoints are legal, but that your rights are the same as any other LEO stop, unlike the loss of your 4[suP]th[/suP] amendment rights at the border. [/b]

SCOTUS stated that you have to stop at these check points, but unless there is a reasonable suspicion of some violation of immigration law you do not have to answer any questions or consent to any searches.

[/b]If these stops are not based on any reasonable suspicion and you can exercise your 5[suP]th[/suP] and 4[suP]th[/suP] amendment rights would a CPL holder have to immediately disclose he was carrying a concealed weapon? Would he have to produce a driver’s license? [/b]

[/b]There are many videos of people resisting to submit to any commands from the border patrol including, not producing a driver’s license or any ID. The people are allowed to leave after being detained up to 30 minutes. It’s obvious from the videos that some of these officers are either ignorant of us law or are intentionally violating them.[/b]

[/b]Below is a map that shows the approximate area that the border patrol can set up these check points and enforce immigration laws [/b]Michigan [/b]This should cause every student of personal liberty a great deal of concern. No matter how bad immigration may, or may not be, to give up more personal freedoms in the fight of illegal immigrants, and ancillary to enforce drugs laws (Which in my opinion is the real reason, and don’t get me started on that subject.) is in all ways problematic. There have been check points in Tecumseh, [/b]Detroit [/b]and at least one in the UP.[/b]
[/b]
If anyone knows of any ongoing border patrol check point within the [/b]Michigan [/b]border please PM me.[/b]

SpringerXDacp · Apr 8, 2009

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Venator wrote:

[/b][/b]If these stops are not based on any reasonable suspicion and you can exercise your 5[suP]th[/suP] and 4[suP]th[/suP] amendment rights would a CPL holder have to immediately disclose he was carrying a concealed weapon? Would he have to produce a driver’s license? [/b]

[/b]

Per Section 5f. (3), CPL holders must immediately disclose to a Peace Officer that he/she is carrying and on request we must produce the CPL and/or drivers license. In this case I would probably disclose as opposed tobeing subjected toa $500 civil infraction and 6 months suspension of my CPL.

IOW, once the officer knows that you are carrying a concealed weapon, does that constitute RAS and therefore require disclosure? If so, IMO, there goes your 4th and 5th rightdoen the drain.

Venator wrote:

[/b]There are many videos of people resisting to submit to any commands from the border patrol including, not producing a driver’s license or any ID. The people are allowed to leave after being detained up to 30 minutes. It’s obvious from the videos that some of these officers are either ignorant of us law or are intentionally violating them.[/b]

[/b]

I wonder how many those who were detained was carrying and are required by law to disclose?

Venator wrote:

[/b]Below is a map that shows the approximate area that the border patrol can set up these check points and enforce immigration laws [/b]Michigan [/b]This should cause every student of personal liberty a great deal of concern. No matter how bad immigration may, or may not be, to give up more personal freedoms in the fight of illegal immigrants, and ancillary to enforce drugs laws (Which in my opinion is the real reason, and don’t get me started on that subject.) is in all ways problematic. There have been check points in Tecumseh, [/b]Detroit [/b]and at least one in the UP.[/b]
[/b]

Christ, why don't they make it easier on themselves and just consider the entire State of Michigan a check point. :X

Venator wrote:

[/b][/b]If anyone knows of any ongoing border patrol check point within the [/b]Michigan [/b]border please PM me.[/b]

Ipersonally, fortunately, have never experienced/seen a check point in Michigan or elsewhere.

Michigander · Apr 8, 2009

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I've seen them in the southwest. They are yet another oppressive measure by the feds with no legal ground to support them. The problem is, you have a lot of young idiots running these things, who think they are keeping the country safe, and they don't understand how wrong it is.

Regardless of why they happen, they need to be fought every step of the way, because they are so unconstitutional it's sick. If they start doing these in Michigan, my best advice is to give them an extra hard time, and bring video or audio recording devices with you. Only by giving the agents a hard time, and by complaining to our reps, would we have any chance of getting rid of this trash.

Hopefully they don't bring this garbage to Michigan, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they do. If they can ram this down the throats of freedom lovers in NM, Texas, and AZ, it should be relatively simple to do it here.

Venator · Apr 8, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

I've seen them in the southwest. They are yet another oppressive measure by the feds with no legal ground to support them. The problem is, you have a lot of young idiots running these things, who think they are keeping the country safe, and they don't understand how wrong it is.

Regardless of why they happen, they need to be fought every step of the way, because they are so unconstitutional it's sick. If they start doing these in Michigan, my best advice is to give them an extra hard time, and bring video or audio recording devices with you. Only by giving the agents a hard time, and by complaining to our reps, would we have any chance of getting rid of this trash.

Hopefully they don't bring this garbage to Michigan, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they do. If they can ram this down the throats of freedom lovers in NM, Texas, and AZ, it should be relatively simple to do it here.

There already have been at least three interior checkpoints in Michigan.

WARCHILD · Apr 8, 2009

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In what areas have they been reported?

Venator · Apr 8, 2009

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

Venator wrote:

[/b][/b]If these stops are not based on any reasonable suspicion and you can exercise your 5[suP]th[/suP] and 4[suP]th[/suP] amendment rights would a CPL holder have to immediately disclose he was carrying a concealed weapon? Would he have to produce a driver’s license? [/b]

[/b]

Per Section 5f. (3), CPL holders must immediately disclose to a Peace Officer that he/she is carrying and on request we must produce the CPL and/or drivers license. In this case I would probably disclose as opposed tobeing subjected toa $500 civil infraction and 6 months suspension of my CPL.

Venator in red:

I'll assume thisis for alegal interactions. If the officers asks me for anything I will say am I being detained and Am I free to go. The checkpoint is legal and I must stop, but after I stop I can act as if the officer isn't there. So I'm wondering if the fine and suspension would be worth my fight in getting back our liberty..to me it would be worth it.

Besides if I don't answer any questions and they can't search without a reasonable suspicion of a violation of an immigration law, how will they know?

IOW, once the officer knows that you are carrying a concealed weapon, does that constitute RAS and therefore require disclosure? If so, IMO, there goes your 4th and 5th rightdoen the drain.

Venator wrote:

[/b]There are many videos of people resisting to submit to any commands from the border patrol including, not producing a driver’s license or any ID. The people are allowed to leave after being detained up to 30 minutes. It’s obvious from the videos that some of these officers are either ignorant of us law or are intentionally violating them.[/b]

[/b]

I wonder how many those who were detained was carrying and are required by law to disclose? Doesn't matter they were let go without further violating their rights.

Venator wrote:

[/b]Below is a map that shows the approximate area that the border patrol can set up these check points and enforce immigration laws [/b]Michigan [/b]This should cause every student of personal liberty a great deal of concern. No matter how bad immigration may, or may not be, to give up more personal freedoms in the fight of illegal immigrants, and ancillary to enforce drugs laws (Which in my opinion is the real reason, and don’t get me started on that subject.) is in all ways problematic. There have been check points in Tecumseh, [/b]Detroit [/b]and at least one in the UP.[/b]
[/b]

Christ, why don't they make it easier on themselves and just consider the entire State of Michigan a check point. :X Yeah Christ!

Venator wrote:

[/b][/b]If anyone knows of any ongoing border patrol check point within the [/b]Michigan [/b]border please PM me.[/b]

Ipersonally, fortunately, have never experienced/seen a check point in Michigan or elsewhere.

Well if you know of any please let me know.

Venator · Apr 8, 2009

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WARCHILD wrote:

In what areas have they been reported?

Read my post, I list the three.

WARCHILD · Apr 8, 2009

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ooops...DUH....thanks.

Venator · Apr 8, 2009

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A response from a border patrol/DHS agent or at MGO. Typical fed and LEO response. If you have done nothing wrong, then why complain, and we are here to help you crap.

Doesn't your CPL require you to identify to any Law Enforcement Officer that you encounter during a stop that you are armed? If so then Yes, you'd have to tell them.

This isn't really new, they have this authority already on the Southern Border but up to now haven't done check points very often in our area. They've been operating under the 25mile line even after the 100 mile increase a few years ago (under the Bush Administration). Even now they don't do check points or very very rarely because they don't have the agents to man them.

I would also add that the area isn't under Border Patrol "Control" as you stated, but mearly that they have "authority" within that area to conduct traffic stops and other LE activities as well as checking Immigration status.

People complain that their local cops can't do anything about the illegals but then when DHS tries to increase the staffing to actually DO something you complain?? Where do you get the bizzare notion that we are going to suddenly take over control of you??? If you are a US Citizen and aren't drunk or carrying narcotics we could care less... the same goes for Border Patrol. They will enforce laws other than INA issues but they have to have PC just like any other cop to do that. The check points, if you've actually ever seen one (I assume you have being your complaining about them soooo much... I can only assume you've had personal experiances with them as well as educated your self to the legal aspects... OH WAIT, if you'd actually done that you wouldn't be carrying on here about it!!) you'd realize that most of them you are very rarely stopped at all or if so then less than a minute. If you happen to be born out of the U.S. it may be a minute or two while you show them your I-551 or I-94 or naturalization papers. All in all I seriously doubt you'll actually see many, if any, check points in Michigan.
__________________

Spriteman65 · Apr 8, 2009

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My usual reply to this kind of obnoxious response:

"How much do you value your time? Are you a cop or a corrections officer? This silly check point idea looks like a couple of rookie C.O.'s trying to control a section of a prison library while the prison population is running wild right under your noses in the housing units. BTW; in case you do not know where the housing units are- try that big tree farm down the road with all of the suspicions looking semi trailers around it surrounded by dilapidated single wide mobile homes."

Disclaimer: I do not recommend this response if the officer is not already known to you or seems unreasonable foul.

When I was in high school I got my car torn apart at the border because some kid thought it would be funny to write "Drugs" in the dust on my hood with their finger.

They were good enough to bolt the front seats back down but threw the rest of the interior, including the door panels; in the back.

They even stole the fillet knife out of my tackle box and said it was contraband.

:cuss:

Taurus850CIA · Apr 10, 2009

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I don't like the implications in this at all. Big Brother mentality, NAU, and all that...

As far as disclosure, that's tough. What does "stopped" mean in the law? Does it mean upon meeting an officer in any fashion? Does it mean that disclosure is necessary where it's simply apparent that the officer is acting in an official manner, but hasn't said so, and "Am I being detained" hasn't been spoken? Is the act of stopping at the checkpoint enough to warrant the need to disclose? This definitely needs clarification. To be legally safe as far as disclosure, obviously doing so would be best, but that could put you on rocky ground as stated above. I think they should move the border patrol back to the border. After all, this is not CanAmerixico, at least not yet.

johnfenter · Apr 10, 2009

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Are Border Patrol considered "law enforcement officers" in MI? They don't enforce local or state laws, do they?

Spriteman65 · Apr 10, 2009

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Border Patrol is Federal and receive full cooperation with most Deputies, Tribal, and State Police.

Many of the above would love to have a federal job.

Scooter123 · Apr 10, 2009

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For me this is a "so what" type of question. The Law says that I must disclose if I am carrying concealed when stopped and I really cannot fathom any reason why I should not. In fact, even if it weren't required, I would still disclose it if I were carrying. For two very good reasons, one is that most of the time a LEO will let a CPL holder off with a warning for a minor infraction, and second it prevents any misunderstanding in the event that my weapon was seen. Plus, it's simple common courtesy and most sops appreciate that. Of course I don't drive drunk, transport drugs or illegal aliens, or participate in any other illegal activities. Perhaps if I routinely made it a habit to violate State or Federal Laws, this would be an issue of concern.

SpringerXDacp · Apr 11, 2009

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Scooter123 wrote:

For me this is a "so what" type of question. The Law says that I must disclose if I am carrying concealed when stopped and I really cannot fathom any reason why I should not. In fact, even if it weren't required, I would still disclose it if I were carrying. For two very good reasons, one is that most of the time a LEO will let a CPL holder off with a warning for a minor infraction, and second it prevents any misunderstanding in the event that my weapon was seen. Plus, it's simple common courtesy and most sops appreciate that. Of course I don't drive drunk, transport drugs or illegal aliens, or participate in any other illegal activities. Perhaps if I routinely made it a habit to violate State or Federal Laws, this would be an issue of concern.

Scooter, this is not about CPL/Gun disclosure per se. Please read the OP again and try to understand exactly what is being discussed/asked here. But, since you brought it up, I admitted that I would disclose only due to the fact I've been out of work for nearly 1.5 years and I really do not have the monetary backing to challenge "Big Brother." And yes, as CPL holders, we all know the requirement to disclose while carrying concealed, both on foot and in vehicle...Blah...Blah...Blah.

Rogue9er · Apr 16, 2009

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These border checkpoints are way out of line. Get a load of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc

A pastor was tased and beaten and generally mistreated because he refused a search. I've never even heard of something this bad.

tygereye · Apr 16, 2009

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Rogue9er wrote:

These border checkpoints are way out of line. Get a load of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc

A pastor was tased and beaten and generally mistreated because he refused a search. I've never even heard of something this bad.

That is just wrong on SO many levels!!!

Venator · Apr 17, 2009

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People this abuse happens every day by LEO's. That's why having a recording device is so important. It's sad that we have to carry them to protect ourselves, but until every person has one, these abuses of power will continue.

Taurus850CIA · Apr 17, 2009

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Venator wrote:

People this abuse happens every day by LEO's. That's why having a recording device is so important. It's sad that we have to carry them to protect ourselves, but until every person has one, these abuses of power will continue.

I think many more of us have them than we realize. I realized today that my cell phone has audio recording capability better than that of the dedicated recorder I have. My phone is a bottom of the barrel piece of junk, and is equipped with the option. I think a little research of the owners manuals might do everyone a ton of good.

edit:sp

Citizen · Apr 17, 2009

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Rogue9er wrote:

These border checkpoints are way out of line. Get a load of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc

A pastor was tased and beaten and generally mistreated because he refused a search. I've never even heard of something this bad.

That's one reason we should call them "roadblocks" instead of checkpoints.

Michigan Border patrol question

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