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Thread: Converting your OC piece to Less-Than-Lethal

  1. #1
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    Hey guys, odd Q for ya'll:

    My wife and I were chatting about carrying tasers, hornets nests, mace and other less than lethal options.

    My question is:
    If i have a magazine full of rubber bullets, does this change the classification of what i am carrying to a less than lethal device? Do the laws change at this point? Can one be charged with possession of a "deadly weapon" if it is now less-than-lethal? If for any reason the weapon is fired, will it b considered "use of deadly" or "lethal force"? Would it be deemed "loaded" if it were breeched with a rubber bullet?
    Is is considered "discharging of a deadly weapon in city limits", etc etc etc etc..

    Thank guys.
    Why Carry Home/Self Defense Less Lethal Pistol Ammunition? When a less lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. Civilians want another alternative to Lethal Force. A.L.S Technologies, Inc is pleased and excited to announce a new line of Less-Lethal Pistol Ammunition for Home/Self Defense and Animal Control. These munitions are often referred to as extended range impact munitions and serve as similar role as a baton, as they are used to control a subjects behavior through pain compliance and the normal strike areas for a baton are often used as target zones. There have been hundreds of uses across the country where these munitions have been used to disarm people armed with knives and clubs, temporarily disable combative subjects and reduce the risk of unruly death and lawsuits. The pistol ammo will not cycle in automatics, you will have to cycle the gun manually with each round.
    http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html

  2. #2
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    UCA 76-10-501
    (5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
    (i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
    (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
    (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
    (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.

    (9) (a) "Firearm" means a pistol, revolver, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, rifle or sawed-off rifle, or any device that could be used as a dangerous weapon from which is expelled a projectile by action of an explosive.


    The best advice I have ever heard about what ammunition to carry is to find out what your local police use and get the same.


  3. #3
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    ProtectedBy9mm quoted:
    Why Carry Home/Self Defense Less Lethal Pistol Ammunition? When a less lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. Civilians want another alternative to Lethal Force. A.L.S Technologies, Inc is pleased and excited to announce a new line of Less-Lethal Pistol Ammunition for Home/Self Defense and Animal Control. These munitions are often referred to as extended range impact munitions and serve as similar role as a baton, as they are used to control a subjects behavior through pain compliance and the normal strike areas for a baton are often used as target zones. There have been hundreds of uses across the country where these munitions have been used to disarm people armed with knives and clubs, temporarily disable combative subjects and reduce the risk of unruly death and lawsuits. The pistol ammo will not cycle in automatics, you will have to cycle the gun manually with each round.
    http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html
    I'm suspicious.

    First, its promotional material.

    "Knowledgeable courts"? How many of these are there? What were the circumstances in the cases? All police using LTL munitions? How many cases? It just sounds overblown. I mean, how many people have been tried criminally such that a court recognized it, as opposed to a jury? How many civilly?

    Hundreds of uses across the country...the normal strike areas for a baton were often used astarget zones? How many times have we been told to shoot center of mass because its too hard to hit arms, legs, elbows, etc? And they mention disarming people of knives with this technique, of all things.

    The more I think about it, the more suspicious I become.

    I'd check this out real thoroughly, Protected.


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  4. #4
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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Why Carry Home/Self Defense Less Lethal Pistol Ammunition? When a less lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. Civilians want another alternative to Lethal Force. A.L.S Technologies, Inc is pleased and excited to announce a new line of Less-Lethal Pistol Ammunition for Home/Self Defense and Animal Control. These munitions are often referred to as extended range impact munitions and serve as similar role as a baton, as they are used to control a subjects behavior through pain compliance and the normal strike areas for a baton are often used as target zones. There have been hundreds of uses across the country where these munitions have been used to disarm people armed with knives and clubs, temporarily disable combative subjects and reduce the risk of unruly death and lawsuits. The pistol ammo will not cycle in automatics, you will have to cycle the gun manually with each round.
    http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html
    Even if I were to accept all of this at face value, why in the world would I want a non-lethal round as first up in my self-defense gun when that round will not then cycle my gun and I will have to cycle it manually?!?!?!? Sounds like a great way to end up dead to me.

    IFF I ever were persuaded that a "less than lethal" round first up in the gun had some legal benefit I'd at least pick something that would cycle absolutely reliably. One might look at some snake shot or similar rounds.

    But what happens when you have a 'less (than?) lethal" round first up and the guy dies anyway? Do you argue you WERE justified in using deadly force, but hoped he wouldn't die?

    As citizen points out, I'd like to some ACTUAL court cases, or at least quotes from prosecutors to this effect.

    Personally, I think a can of mace/pepper spray or a taser is a LOT better option than EVER thinking to use a gun for less than lethal force OR possibly diminishing the effectiveness and reliability of your gun when you really needed lethal force.

    My $.02 worth ($015 after taxes).

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  5. #5
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    Thank you all for the feedback.

    I should have given a bit more detail as to how I came to my questions about Rubber Bullets. Basically I am trying to avoid carrying a pistol and a taser or a can of mace. I know I am the one who loves wearing his 9mm out in the open, but combine that with a taser or a can of Bear Mace seems a bit menacing IMO. I do, however, see the importance of having the options: lethal and/or non-lethal force to evade/prevent a scenario resulting in death/bodily injury.

    Most of us carry multiple mags anyway: Maybe two are live and you have one of rubber? Or is the cycling issue a huge point that i'm missing?

  6. #6
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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Thank you all for the feedback.

    I should have given a bit more detail as to how I came to my questions about Rubber Bullets. Basically I am trying to avoid carrying a pistol and a taser or a can of mace. I know I am the one who loves wearing his 9mm out in the open, but combine that with a taser or a can of Bear Mace seems a bit menacing IMO. I do, however, see the importance of having the options: lethal and/or non-lethal force to evade/prevent a scenario resulting in death/bodily injury.

    Most of us carry multiple mags anyway: Maybe two are live and you have one of rubber? Or is the cycling issue a huge point that i'm missing?
    On this subject I am reminded of the Young LEO in California recently who grabbed the WRONG TOOL when attempting to "Taze" someone on the platform.

    It would be VERY easy to forget that your LESS THAN LETHAL ( Theory here ) magazine was NOT THE ONE IN THE GUN.

    The other issue is: when the less than load is in the gun WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO THE TACTICAL RELOAD TO GET REAL BULLETS WHEN THEY ARE NEEDED!

    Personally, I am very comfortable KNOWING that all the magazines I carry are fully loaded with potentially lethal rounds. I hope that I NEVER HAVE to use them... but I will not be without them!

    And yes, when I open carry I have one concealed as well.


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  7. #7
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    As long as we're on this topic, first i agree with the sentiments above.

    Second, i have been thinking about carrying a less than lethal weapon and i currently own an ASP, you know the collapsible batons.

    I was wondering whether this could legally be carried and if it would be considered less than lethal or if it would be considered a lethal weapon.

    What do y'all think?

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    thx997303 wrote:
    As long as we're on this topic, first i agree with the sentiments above.

    Second, i have been thinking about carrying a less than lethal weapon and i currently own an ASP, you know the collapsible batons.

    I was wondering whether this could legally be carried and if it would be considered less than lethal or if it would be considered a lethal weapon.

    What do y'all think?
    UCA 76-10-501
    (5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
    (i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
    (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
    (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
    (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.

    Citing from the above post, i gather the answer to your question is yes, it COULD be deemed as a deadly weapon and then again - it coudl not.. However, I AM using extreme sarcasm ONLY b/c the above stated laws provide forks, keys, a wedding ring, etc etc...just depending on "the manner in which it was used", so yea, it just depends on what the fuzz wants to charge you with once they arrive on scene, IMO.

    I only say this b/c depending on "the manner of use" (or mis-use) of your baton can be either lethal or non-lethal. Basically cops are the only ones who should have guns and means to defend themselves without fear of prosecution, unless they are in a good mood and don't charge you with all the crap that they can....look at the damn law, that sucks. Loosely written laws like these make it SO easy for LEOs to charge you with whatever..

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Your handgun could be used as a less than lethal weapon. Pistol whipping, anyone?
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Your handgun could be used as a less than lethal weapon. Pistol whipping, anyone?
    :celebrate


  11. #11
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    That was kinda what i was thinking, i guess the baton would be more of a backup than an alternative.

    guess ill get some spray

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