Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: International students and going shooting

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    As I am attempting to develop the U of M Students for CC on Campus, I've run across a few international students that have an interest in shooting, particularly if they're from a disarmed nation. However, some of them aren't even sure if it'd be legal to handle a gun, or rent one from a range. I think it would be, but I'd like to provide them with a legal basis for this matter.

    Has anyone seen actual law relating to this matter? I could use a few citations to show them that they'd be alright. The guy from Iran is particularly worried about it.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    Remember, laws are made against things...

    Not that it's for sure legal, but finding a law that you can show grants them permission to go shooting will probably be impossible.


    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Houghton, MI, ,
    Posts
    15

    Post imported post

    I'm a range officer here at MTU, we are required to have them fill out a form that releases legal liability for their actions and of course provide them with sufficient training. Of course we are a rifle team, handguns may be slightly different. A questionnaire our risk maanagement department made up is attached, it's pretty much the same list of questions you'd have to answer while buying a long gun through a retail outlet. Assuming they haven't comitted a felony or the like we let them shoot.

    No one has actually brought up this particular issue here, I'd be interested in hearing what you come up with. It's our policy not to ask the nationality of students, but it is a requirement to understand english well enough to safely understand range commands.

    Don't know if that helps...

    You've certainly peaked my interest, I'll ask some of the other guys around here too.

    Does UofM have something like a "Risk Management" department ? I'd probably ask them.


  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a2

    (B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?[Back]
    An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.
    See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.
    [18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]

    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Troy, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,321

    Post imported post

    yep, the US acknowledges the rights of non-citizens to purchase weapons while residing in our great country. i overheard a conversation between a non-citizen and a firearms salesman in a gander mountain where the salesman advised the "alien" that all he needed to provide was valid ID and something along the lines of a utility bill in his name to establish residence. as far as handling a firearm, i don't think that it would be a problem for a non-citizen to go to the range and rent a firearm on their first day in country. i think that most of us here agree that the second amendment is a human right and not just for american citizens.
    Michigander wrote:
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a2

    (B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?[Back]
    An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.
    See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.
    [18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    Courtesy of Dr. Todd:

    US state and federal gun laws for non-citizensFederal Issues: In general, non-immigrant (F1 Visa) aliens are forbidden to possess any firearms or ammunition. But there is a big exception for a legal alien who: ...is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States

    (See Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922, part (y)(2) for details.)
    Green-card holders and immigrant aliens who do not yet have their green card are both okay under federal law, although many people (including gun dealers, law enforcement officers, etc.) are not aware of the distinction or the hunting license exception, and erroneously think that either you have a green card, or you can't have guns.
    Also, a non-citizen cannot purchase a firearm from a federally licensed firearms dealer unless they have been a resident of their state for 90 days. So, no, tourists on short visits cannot walk into a store and purchase a firearm.
    A non-resident alien can not use a firearm at the range. Here is a local FBI affidavit that details what happened to someone who used a firearm at the range on a student visa.
    http://www.investigativeproject.org/...e_docs/568.pdf


    It appears the only way around this is for the students to purchase a hunting license. A small game license costs about $15.00. There is a requirement that the person take a "hunters safety" course beforehand, but they can attest to the fact that they have had a hunter's course elsewhere by signing the license in the presence of the seller.


    Michigan: In Michigan Law istates:
    a person shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section
    One of the requirements for getting such a license is:
    The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state
    However, that requirement was struck down as unconstitutional (on equal protection grounds) by the Michigan Court of Appeals. (See Chan v City of Troy, 220 Mich App 376.) However, it hasn't formally been repealed by the legislature yet.
    You don't need that license, though, if you get a concealed-carry license:
    An individual who is licensed under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol is not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    However, such a license is only issued to a Michigan resident who is a citizen or:
    a resident legal alien as defined in section 11 of title 18 of the United States Code
    The confusing thing is that section 11 of title 18 has nothing at all to do with defining resident legal aliens! It's not clear to me whether this is supposed to be referring only to legal permanent resident aliens or all legal resident aliens.
    Read the firearms laws (Act 372 of 1927) and consult a lawyer, and use extreme caution!



    It sounds like this is rather complicated, and is probably a bad idea. I wouldn't mind taking some guy shooting in my yard, but I probably wouldn't want to do it in a public place.

    Still, what is possession? Holding? Renting? Or is it ownership? Probably would be safer for me and SCCC to just not do it.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,071

    Post imported post




    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)

    Act 372 of 1927

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.Sec. 2.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.
    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a(1) of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950(10) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a(7) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b(5) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b(1) of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.
    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.
    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.
    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.
    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.
    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.
    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.
    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.
    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.
    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.
    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.
    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.
    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.
    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.
    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.
    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:
    (a) The person's home of record.
    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.
    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:
    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.
    (b) Safe storage of pistols.
    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.
    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.
    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.
    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.
    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).



    I wonder if that would do it?

    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    That would appear to clear the problem of State law. The problem of Federal Law still remains, I'm not sure what they regard as possession, and that affidavit didn't look friendly. The only hole that's been brought up is for the hunting license.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.



    I wonder if that would do it?
    I don't know,aren't they prohibited for possessing the pistol if they are on a student visa?

    I know, I know what exactly is "possession"

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    When I originally answered Rogue9er's question while away from my information at home, I too assumed that possession did not apply when using a range. I think Michigan sees it this way too because one does not need to get a Pistol Permit to borrow or rent a gun at the range, as they are not actually in exclusive control of the firearm.

    However, as exemplified by the affidavit I linked to in my PM to Rogue9er
    http://www.investigativeproject.org/...e_docs/568.pdf, the Feds don't seem to see it this way. I think to totally be safe, the alien would have to have the hunting license in hand if using the range.

    In regards to Michigan law, it appears that Bronson is correct because THEY ARE otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol under law.

    I would err on the side of caution. OCers know too well what can happen when you exercise a legal right. In reality, would a Canadian student be noticed at a local range? Probably not. The student from Iran would probably be a different story, though. I don't know if this type of "profiling" is fair, but in all honesty the law is what it is until it's changed.


    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •