Open Carry?

conservative85 wrote:

First, you all want to put a 5 inch non folding blade in your pocket near the boys you all go right ahead:shock:.

In the mean time I will research further but I am sure I read a MCL on blades and it was clear on folding and straight over 3" in the pocket.

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Have you found it? I've searched for quite a while, and have found nothing on folding knives. I found NONfolding, but only where already quoted above. I also searched Port Huron and Port Huron Twp ordinances, and found nothing that would have warranted being kicked out of Meijer. Sounds like someone probably had a chip on their shoulder.


edit:spelling

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I found nothing in the MLC but it was years ago when I was looking it up. For all I it could have been a city or TWP. ordinance. I saw that Fenton has an Ord. anything over 3". http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10767&sid=22

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conservative85 wrote:

I found nothing in the MLC but it was years ago when I was looking it up. For all I it could have been a city or TWP. ordinance. I saw that Fenton has an Ord. anything over 3". http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10767&sid=22

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Sec. 20-94. Knives with blades longer than three inches. (a)It shall be unlawful for any person to be in possession of a knife with a blade more than three inches in length in any of the streets, alleys, parks, boulevards or other public property or schools in the city, or in the Fenton Community Center, or in any theatre, amusement park, liquor establishment, store or other private property generally frequented by the public for purposes of education, recreation, amusement, entertainment, sport or shopping. (b)The prohibition contained in subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to any person in possession of any such knife when it is used or carried in good faith as a tool of honest work, trade, business, sport or recreation when the person in possession of such knife is actively engaged therein or actively engaged in going to or returning from such honest work, trade, business, sport or recreation. (Code 1967, § 7-120)

That one? It's basically the same as the state one, meaning if you're not gonna be a throat-slitting jerk, you can have a knife longer than 3 inches. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ALWAYS on my way to or from fishing or working. From what I understand, though, fishing is inherently dishonest, so maybe that won't work...

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conservative85 wrote:

RedNeck_Hunter06 wrote:

i also recently got kicked out of meijer in port huron for having a buck knife on my belt. Is that right or is it just me or did they just cause an issue for no reason.

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First welcome to the site Red. 2nd the law states as follows.

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]5.  Is it illegal to have a knife with a blade over 3 inches in my possession?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"][font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 750.226[/font]   No. Michigan law specifies that a person, with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another, shall not go armed with a knife having a blade over 3 inches in length.[/font]

I carry a 5 inch buck in a sheath (sheath does not constitute concealed), most places except in the car. It has to be treated as a person w/a firearm with no cpl license. Any blade over 3" cannot be in your pocket, it has to be open carried. Please research the other blade laws.

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Actualy, that is an (incorrect) interpretation of the law. One cannot carry a concealed weapon in Michigan, but knives can be carried for utility, which is why the law is tied to intent.

750.226 Firearm or dangerous weapon; carrying with unlawful intent.
Sec. 226.
Carrying firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent—Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.
​

It is not against state law to carry a knife in your pocket that is over 3" in length. Some localities may restrict it, but state law does not. OTOH, if your carrying a Case Peanut for the purpose of SD, then you are in violation of the law, which is a five year felony.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


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It is legal to carry a blade over 3" in your pocket (providing it complies with local law) in Michigan. You just can't carry it with the intention of using it as a weapon, or with the intent to use it unlawfully against another person.

​

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ghostrider wrote:

conservative85 wrote:

RedNeck_Hunter06 wrote:

i also recently got kicked out of meijer in port huron for having a buck knife on my belt. Is that right or is it just me or did they just cause an issue for no reason.

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First welcome to the site Red. 2nd the law states as follows.

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]5. Is it illegal to have a knife with a blade over 3 inches in my possession?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"][font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 750.226[/font] No. Michigan law specifies that a person, with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another, shall not go armed with a knife having a blade over 3 inches in length.[/font]

I carry a 5 inch buck in a sheath (sheath does not constitute concealed), most places except in the car. It has to be treated as a person w/a firearm with no cpl license. Any blade over 3" cannot be in your pocket, it has to be open carried. Please research the other blade laws.

Click to expand...

Actualy, that is an (incorrect) interpretation of the law. One cannot carry a concealed weapon in Michigan, but knives can be carried for utility, which is why the law is tied to intent.

750.226 Firearm or dangerous weapon; carrying with unlawful intent.
Sec. 226.
Carrying firearm or dangerous weapon with unlawful intent—Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine of not more than 2,500 dollars.
​

It is not against state law to carry a knife in your pocket that is over 3" in length. Some localities may restrict it, but state law does not. OTOH, if your carrying a Case Peanut for the purpose of SD, then you are in violation of the law, which is a five year felony.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


​

It is legal to carry a blade over 3" in your pocket (providing it complies with local law) in Michigan. You just can't carry it with the intention of using it as a weapon, or with the intent to use it unlawfully against another person.

​

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I don't understand ghostrider. Couldn't a knife over 3" in length be considered a dangerous weapon by the court. And the law you quote clearly states you may not carry "...or any dangerous weapon.... concealed on or about his or her person.."

There is case law stating a knife under 3 inches is not a dangerous weapon... but seems to me if you have a 4" knife in your pocket you run the risk of being charged with concealing a dangerous weapon.

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Excerpt from http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/mi.txt

"An ordinary jackknife with a pointed blade 3-5/16 inches
long was not a 'dangerous weapon...' in the absence of
evidence that it was used or carried for use as a weapon."
(1945)
"Pocket knives, razors, hammers, hatchets, wrenches,
cutting tools, and other articles would constitute
'dangerous weapons'... if used or carried for use as
weapons." (1945)

The point is that there is no legal definition of 'Dangerous Weapon'. Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not. If you carry a 5" knife in your pocket I don't think the judge will care if you tell him your only intent was to have it on hand to clean your fingernails when necessary. He could declare it a dangerous weapon and since it was concealed convict you of a felony.

It seems clear to me that the laws were written with the intent to prevent anyone from carrying a 'concealed' weapon. It seems I can carry any size knife or other dangerous weapons (i.e. a 42" Katana) as long as my intent is legal behavior (such as self defense)and it is NOT concealed and never in a motor vehicle.

Of course, we're not talking about firearms, thus there could be local statutes that prevent one from say..carrying around a sword in plain site.

The motor vehicle thing really stinks since it doesn't give any exceptions...meaning you can't even transport a 'dangerous weapon' locked away in the trunk of your car without violating '750.227. (1)'

So don't be taking your nunchuks to karate class if you have to drive to get there. You'd be committing a felony.

Just not worth the hassle I guess... I'll stick with my 9mm.

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"Pocket knives, razors, hammers, hatchets, wrenches, 
cutting tools, and other articles would constitute 
'dangerous weapons'...[b] if used or carried for use as 
weapons." [/b](1945)

"An ordinary jackknife with a pointed blade 3-5/16 inches long was not a 'dangerous weapon...' in the absence of evidence that it was used or carried for use as a weapon." (1945)

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Excerpt from http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/mi.txt

"An ordinary jackknife with a pointed blade 3-5/16 inches
long was not a 'dangerous weapon...' in the absence of
evidence that it was used or carried for use as a weapon."
(1945)
"Pocket knives, razors, hammers, hatchets, wrenches,
cutting tools, and other articles would constitute
'dangerous weapons'... if used or carried for use as
weapons." (1945)

The point is that there is no legal definition of 'Dangerous Weapon'. Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not. If you carry a 5" knife in your pocket I don't think the judge will care if you tell him your only intent was to have it on hand to clean your fingernails when necessary. He could declare it a dangerous weapon and since it was concealed convict you of a felony.

It seems clear to me that the laws were written with the intent to prevent anyone from carrying a 'concealed' weapon. It seems I can carry any size knife or other dangerous weapons (i.e. a 42" Katana) as long as my intent is legal behavior (such as self defense)and it is NOT concealed and never in a motor vehicle.

Of course, we're not talking about firearms, thus there could be local statutes that prevent one from say..carrying around a sword in plain site.

The motor vehicle thing really stinks since it doesn't give any exceptions...meaning you can't even transport a 'dangerous weapon' locked away in the trunk of your car without violating '750.227. (1)'

So don't be taking your nunchuks to karate class if you have to drive to get there. You'd be committing a felony.

Just not worth the hassle I guess... I'll stick with my 9mm.

Click to expand...

atlantis wrote:

Excerpt from http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/mi.txt

"An ordinary jackknife with a pointed blade 3-5/16 inches
long was not a 'dangerous weapon...' in the absence of
evidence that it was used or carried for use as a weapon."
(1945)
"Pocket knives, razors, hammers, hatchets, wrenches,
cutting tools, and other articles would constitute
'dangerous weapons'... if used or carried for use as
weapons." (1945)

The point is that there is no legal definition of 'Dangerous Weapon'. Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not. If you carry a 5" knife in your pocket I don't think the judge will care if you tell him your only intent was to have it on hand to clean your fingernails when necessary. He could declare it a dangerous weapon and since it was concealed convict you of a felony.

It seems clear to me that the laws were written with the intent to prevent anyone from carrying a 'concealed' weapon. It seems I can carry any size knife or other dangerous weapons (i.e. a 42" Katana) as long as my intent is legal behavior (such as self defense)and it is NOT concealed and never in a motor vehicle.

Of course, we're not talking about firearms, thus there could be local statutes that prevent one from say..carrying around a sword in plain site.

The motor vehicle thing really stinks since it doesn't give any exceptions...meaning you can't even transport a 'dangerous weapon' locked away in the trunk of your car without violating '750.227. (1)'

So don't be taking your nunchuks to karate class if you have to drive to get there. You'd be committing a felony.

Just not worth the hassle I guess... I'll stick with my 9mm.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ... you say "Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not" but yet the court, in determining if the items were "dangerous weapons", appears to look for evidence that the item was "used or carried for use as a weapon".  It seems that intent, as evidenced by factual events, DOES determine whether it is a dangerous weapon.  Or, is there some case law that supports your contention, i.e. a person is carrying a 4in. knife to a planned fight but the court finds that intent notwithstanding, the item is not a "dangerous weapon".

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DrTodd wrote:

atlantis wrote:

Excerpt from http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/mi.txt

"An ordinary jackknife with a pointed blade 3-5/16 inches
long was not a 'dangerous weapon...' in the absence of
evidence that it was used or carried for use as a weapon."
(1945)
"Pocket knives, razors, hammers, hatchets, wrenches,
cutting tools, and other articles would constitute
'dangerous weapons'... if used or carried for use as
weapons." (1945)

The point is that there is no legal definition of 'Dangerous Weapon'. Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not. If you carry a 5" knife in your pocket I don't think the judge will care if you tell him your only intent was to have it on hand to clean your fingernails when necessary. He could declare it a dangerous weapon and since it was concealed convict you of a felony.

It seems clear to me that the laws were written with the intent to prevent anyone from carrying a 'concealed' weapon. It seems I can carry any size knife or other dangerous weapons (i.e. a 42" Katana) as long as my intent is legal behavior (such as self defense)and it is NOT concealed and never in a motor vehicle.

Of course, we're not talking about firearms, thus there could be local statutes that prevent one from say..carrying around a sword in plain site.

The motor vehicle thing really stinks since it doesn't give any exceptions...meaning you can't even transport a 'dangerous weapon' locked away in the trunk of your car without violating '750.227. (1)'

So don't be taking your nunchuks to karate class if you have to drive to get there. You'd be committing a felony.

Just not worth the hassle I guess... I'll stick with my 9mm.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ... you say "Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not" but yet the court, in determining if the items were "dangerous weapons", appears to look for evidence that the item was "used or carried for use as a weapon". It seems that intent, as evidenced by factual events, DOES determine whether it is a dangerous weapon. Or, is there some case law that supports your contention, i.e. a person is carrying a 4in. knife to a planned fight but the court finds that intent notwithstanding, the item is not a "dangerous weapon".

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Yes, I guess you're right. When I was considering 'intent' I was thinking of "Intent to use for illegal purposes" but in those cites they are referring to "Intent for use as a weapon".. not necessarily an illegal thing in itself.

However, the point is still valid. It leaves it up to the judge to decide if you have some other use for your 4"+ knife besides for use as a weapon. Too vague.

It's ridiculous really. So I have a 5" folding knife I keep in my pocket. If I can claim I keep it there for some other reason than as a weapon...it magically makes the knife a harmless item. But if I don't have such a reason...suddenly it's a dangerous weapon and I'm committing a felony by putting it in my pocket. It either is a dangerous weapon or it's not.

At least the state makes it clear that it's only an issue if I conceal it

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atlantis wrote:

DrTodd wrote:

atlantis wrote:

Excerpt from http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/mi.txt

"An ordinary jackknife with a pointed blade 3-5/16 inches
long was not a 'dangerous weapon...' in the absence of
evidence that it was used or carried for use as a weapon."
(1945)
"Pocket knives, razors, hammers, hatchets, wrenches,
cutting tools, and other articles would constitute
'dangerous weapons'... if used or carried for use as
weapons." (1945)

The point is that there is no legal definition of 'Dangerous Weapon'. Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not. If you carry a 5" knife in your pocket I don't think the judge will care if you tell him your only intent was to have it on hand to clean your fingernails when necessary. He could declare it a dangerous weapon and since it was concealed convict you of a felony.

It seems clear to me that the laws were written with the intent to prevent anyone from carrying a 'concealed' weapon. It seems I can carry any size knife or other dangerous weapons (i.e. a 42" Katana) as long as my intent is legal behavior (such as self defense)and it is NOT concealed and never in a motor vehicle.

Of course, we're not talking about firearms, thus there could be local statutes that prevent one from say..carrying around a sword in plain site.

The motor vehicle thing really stinks since it doesn't give any exceptions...meaning you can't even transport a 'dangerous weapon' locked away in the trunk of your car without violating '750.227. (1)'

So don't be taking your nunchuks to karate class if you have to drive to get there. You'd be committing a felony.

Just not worth the hassle I guess... I'll stick with my 9mm.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ... you say "Intent does not in any way define whether an item is a dangerous weapon or not" but yet the court, in determining if the items were "dangerous weapons", appears to look for evidence that the item was "used or carried for use as a weapon". It seems that intent, as evidenced by factual events, DOES determine whether it is a dangerous weapon. Or, is there some case law that supports your contention, i.e. a person is carrying a 4in. knife to a planned fight but the court finds that intent notwithstanding, the item is not a "dangerous weapon".

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Yes, I guess you're right. When I was considering 'intent' I was thinking of "Intent to use for illegal purposes" but in those cites they are referring to "Intent for use as a weapon".. not necessarily an illegal thing in itself.

However, the point is still valid. It leaves it up to the judge to decide if you have some other use for your 4"+ knife besides for use as a weapon. Too vague.

It's ridiculous really. So I have a 5" folding knife I keep in my pocket. If I can claim I keep it there for some other reason than as a weapon...it magically makes the knife a harmless item. But if I don't have such a reason...suddenly it's a dangerous weapon and I'm committing a felony by putting it in my pocket. It either is a dangerous weapon or it's not.

At least the state makes it clear that it's only an issue if I conceal it

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It's up to you to decide what's best for you. I don't personaly carry a knife for a weapon, but do carry one (or two) for various, every day tasks that can best be summed up as, "utility". I haven't left home without some sort of pocket knife since I was in the nineth grade, and have carried a pocket knife since I was 9. I believe that everyone could benifit from having a good pocket knife.

Far too many people stigmatize things that can be used as weapons, and weapons in general. That's one of the reasons why OC is so important. To desensitize the public away from that phobia that has been instilled in them over time by society, the media, and our government.

A knife is the most basic, and oldest tool known to man. Why some people choose to go without one is beyond me. As for carrying it as a weapon, There are lots of things that can be used as weapons. Most of them are simple, every day items.

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The issue of whether something is concealed is also left for the court to decide; see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/20101.html

Unless the legislature explicitly defines the terms used in any law, the definition is determined by the court (either judge or jury). This is, as you say, "Vague" but I'm afraid that this process is the way the legal system works. Think of the term "concealed" which, according to the judge in this case (above) is that if a reasonable person sees the gun it's “not concealed”; the judge thought it should be up to a jury of ordinary people to decide if the firearm was concealed or open.

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