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Thread: LawOfficer.com article on open carry

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    I was puking after several paragraphs and stop reading !!!

    The best thing on that entire page and the only thing worth reading was the comment.
    Added Apr 9 2009 11:59AM

    See U.S. v Dudley---the open display of a firearm in a state which permits this is only evidence of legal activity.The officer can not approach a subject on the basis of his or her openly displaying a firearm---only.There must be some other illegal activity taking place.

    The case is one of the arrest of two convicted felons in possession of various firearms to include NFA items.The whole case was lost because the police confronted the two solely on the basis of a firearm in their vehicle---which was perfectly legal in that state.

    Be careful and know the law!

    Here let me provide some quotes from the article for others to glance over.

    Besides the guy mentioning OCDO:

    >>>>>>>One aspect Smith noted was that "you rarely saw folks with handguns just walking around, but your biker types would regularly carry." This seems to often be the situation encountered in other locations—those carrying may be gun rights activists, non-felon bikers, or others voicing a political point of view. Thus it again pays to, first, be cognizant of the law, and second, maintain a professional, respectful attitude when handling these folks.<<<<<

    Is this an oxy-moron or what ? He says that cops must obey the law, when they break the law, by stopping an armed citizen just for being armed.

    Also, How often are bikers in the news for OC.ing ?

    >>>>>>On the one hand, it really is rude to carry open in an urban setting. On the other hand, when in the back country, it is very reassuring, whether you may encounter snakes, mortally injured cattle and deer, or ne'er do wells looking to prey on the unwitting.<<<<<<<

    ROFL !! I'll let you guys handle this one ....



    >>>>>>>>>He explained that the first step was to control the firearm—separate it from the citizen, secure it for the length of the interaction. On any armed encounter back-up was a routine request. Generally the firearm would be run NCIC while the situation was further handled. If the situation played out with no further criminal action, the firearm, emptied, would be returned to its owner who could reload it and re-holster it after the departure of the officers.<<<<<<<<<<



    What !?!?

    Illegally confiscate it from the Law Abiding citizen.

    Run it thru NCIC !?!?

    No further Criminal Action !?!?



    Then he goes on to say that he agrees with an armed society, just as long as it doesn't hurt anyones feelings and you hide it.

    :?








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    It didn't really strike me as being anti-OC, more an admonition to other police that - like it or not - this is permissable conduct, which is what we've been saying all along.

    I would like to read this Dudley ruling - never heard of someone getting out of a supposed NFA violation.

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    It didn't really strike me as being anti-OC, more an admonition to other police that - like it or not - this is permissable conduct, which is what we've been saying all along.

    I would like to read this Dudley ruling - never heard of someone getting out of a supposed NFA violation.

    -ljp
    The fact that he's advocating stopping someone going peacefully about their business, seizing their property, and then running the numbers from the seized property doesn't strike you as anti-OC? Not to mention calling it "rude" to open carry in an urban environment (though I'm sure he has no problem with officer's doing do). If the officer, a citizen, has the right to OC, why not the other citizens of the same society?

    *edit*
    In fact, the above would be like stopping someone riding a bicycle, taking the bicycle from them, and running the serial number to see if it's stolen. I would call that behavior "anti cyclist," wouldn't you?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    They didn't get out of an NFA violation, they had evidence suppressed due to unlawful search & seizure. After that it was pretty hard to convict on NFA violations without the evidence.

    This sort of thing happens all of the time. The cops still search unlawfully because it's a numbers game. Only 1 out of 20 (This number was just pulled out my rear end) people are going to get an attorney, and a smart enough attorney to help them show the unlawful seizure.

    I would be interested in the legality of running NCIS checks on firearms that were taken from someone at such a stop as described in the article. Even if the firearm were stolen, such evidence would probably be suppressed, since there was no legal basis to run the search. Hell, even if someone was stopped in a 'Terry' style stop, it might not be legal, since the reason for securing the firearm is for officer protection, not evidence collection.

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    Tawnos wrote:
    Legba wrote:
    It didn't really strike me as being anti-OC, more an admonition to other police that - like it or not - this is permissable conduct, which is what we've been saying all along.

    I would like to read this Dudley ruling - never heard of someone getting out of a supposed NFA violation.

    -ljp
    The fact that he's advocating stopping someone going peacefully about their business, seizing their property, and then running the numbers from the seized property doesn't strike you as anti-OC? Not to mention calling it "rude" to open carry in an urban environment (though I'm sure he has no problem with officer's doing do). If the officer, a citizen, has the right to OC, why not the other citizens of the same society?

    *edit*
    In fact, the above would be like stopping someone riding a bicycle, taking the bicycle from them, and running the serial number to see if it's stolen. I would call that behavior "anti cyclist," wouldn't you?
    Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed to me like he was presenting a hypothetical situation - (if) you stop some guy and then the case gets tossed, don't be surprised... etc. I'm certainly not going to defend cops who perform arbitrary stops and arrests based on misunderstanding of the law (been there). I missed the "rude" remark anyway, so I'm willing to believe you're right. I am trying to read all this with continual interruptions at work.

    -ljp

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    Dustin wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>He explained that the first step was to control the firearm—separate it from the citizen, secure it for the length of the interaction. On any armed encounter back-up was a routine request. Generally the firearm would be run NCIC while the situation was further handled. If the situation played out with no further criminal action, the firearm, emptied, would be returned to its owner who could reload it and re-holster it after the departure of the officers.<<<<<<<<<<



    What !?!?

    Illegally confiscate it from the Law Abiding citizen.

    Run it thru NCIC !?!?

    No further Criminal Action !?!?



    Then he goes on to say that he agrees with an armed society, just as long as it doesn't hurt anyones feelings and you hide it.

    :?
    He explained that the first step was to control the firearm—(CRIMINAL ACTION #1)separate it from the citizen, secure it for the length of the interaction. On any armed encounter back-up was a routine request. (CRIMINAL ACTION #2) Generally the firearm would be run NCIC while the situation was further handled. If the situation played out with no further criminal action (COMMITTED BY THE OFFICERS) , the firearm, emptied, would be returned to its owner who could reload it and re-holster it after the departure of the CRIMINAL officers

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    You know, if you go down to the last paragraph, the authorseems to bemore in tune with 2A considerations that some are giving him credit for.
    It's a new world for us. Carry options are greater for citizens and officers than ever before. We need to stay on top of these changes, to ensure we are responsive to our populations as well as to enjoy the expanded options ourselves. Our support of responsible carry among law abiding citizens is reflected with increased recognition of our ability to carry; for those of us who agree with Heinlein, an armed society is, indeed, a polite society.
    This sentiment is not very different than what we advocate on this and other 2A boards.



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    Clearly the writer has some bias against OC but at least he got this in there,

    "So what does this mean to the officer on the street? First, remain aware of your state's laws. They change, or have nuances that are not always well known. Try to avoid being entangled in a legal dispute over what your state permits; it keeps your batting average up, helps you avoid civil court, and increases your prestige among your populace. Probably the best source of current information on open carry status in all fifty states is the web site Opencarry.org. This site maintains information on specifics of carry in each state, permitting one to be aware of all aspects for the state. "

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    I am taken aback at some of the opinionated editorial in this article. Points that stuck out to me:

    Indeed, the map of open carry states is surprising, when one realizes that pistol permit bearers in such states as Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, and New Jersey may carry openly, and that even California law permits open carry in rural areas.
    In CA, you can carry loaded in rural areas. Others, unloaded carry is legal.

    Open carry has further meaning for us. Whether you live in the state, or are visiting, if it is a full open carry state you are covered. On the one hand, it really is rude to carry open in an urban setting. On the other hand, when in the back country, it is very reassuring, whether you may encounter snakes, mortally injured cattle and deer, or ne'er do wells looking to prey on the unwitting.
    Rude in urban areas? Ne'er-do-wells only in rural areas? The author fails to take into account that the majority of violent crimes in this country take place in urban areas.

    It's a new world for us. Carry options are greater for citizens and officers than ever before. We need to stay on top of these changes, to ensure we are responsive to our populations as well as to enjoy the expanded options ourselves. Our support of responsible carry among law abiding citizens is reflected with increased recognition of our ability to carry; for those of us who agree with Heinlein, an armed society is, indeed, a polite society.
    Indeed, it is a Brave New World for us. People are realizing the rights they have are being withered away. The only way to keep them is for Citizens and LEOs alike to respect each others' rights and follow the law. Law Enforcement Officers do need to support Law Abiding Citizens. Not a bad close to this op ed piece.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    I have sent an email to Mr. Laska:

    Mr. Laska,

    After reading your essay I have a few comments to make:

    1. I only speak for my experience in Virginia, where open carry is legal, well understood by the populace and LEO's, where I am a resident and also run a website explaining the ins and outs of gun carry by law abiding citizens.

    2. I have never had anyone tell me that my practice of open carry in an urban environment (Northern VA, Fairfax County, just west of D.C., the second most affluent county in the nation) is "rude". In fact, I have never had anyone say anything negative to me about open carry at all. What I have had conveyed to me... by unknown citizens and shopkeepers, is a heartfelt "thank you" for my decision to responsibly carry a sidearm. Or I may get questions such as "Are you a cop?", "Why do you carry?". I take the opportunity to explain my actions and educate about gun rights and responsibilities. My right to carry does not cease or become negated simply because I don't live in the country.

    3. Some states like VA do not allow concealed carry in an establishment that serves alcohol (such as Applebee's), and open carry is the only legal option for the gun carrier. See http://www.vcdl.org/letters/ABC_Letter.pdf and http://www.vcdl.org/letters/VASP_OPEN.pdf for more info. The citizen openly carrying is those establishments is simply obeying the law and not attempting to be "rude".

    4. I take umbrage at your belief that open carry constitutes probable cause for a Terry stop. If no law is being violated, the officer may not stop and disarm me for the purposes of having a non-consensual "chat". Departments in VA understand this and have been trained accordingly. What I *do* support is the officer instigating a consensual conversation with the armed citizen. This has happened to me on multiple occasions, I have audio of one such encounter: http://vaguninfo.com/media/chick.mp3 I support the officer speaking with the citizen for the purpose of determining the mental state of mind, is the person acting nervous, shifty, or evasive. On the flip side of this argument, the officer should be prepared for the citizen to simply tell the officer it's none of his business why the citizen is openly carrying a firearm. I am not cut from that cloth myself, I prefer to be on good terms with the local officers and I enjoy speaking to them about open carry if they ask.

    5. If the officer has no PC that the openly carried gun is stolen, what gives the officer the power (notice I said "power" and not "right") to run a serial number through NCIS? I Think you know the answer to this question. This also varies from state to state depending on local laws. But, here in VA simply openly carrying a firearm is not sufficient PC to stop a citizen, disarm him or her and run the firearm through NCIS. That is considered a violation of the 4th amendment and any negative discovery through NCIS would be invalidated in court.

    6. Further info on open carry in VA can be found here: http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm

    In closing, I gathered from your essay that you recognize a citizen's right to openly carry a firearm and the purpose of your column was to inform line officers what to expect and how to react if and when they encounter someone like myself. I appreciate your information but we also must ensure that officers don't feel they can go on a "fishing trip" and molest a citizen for simple legal gun carry.

    If you ever find yourself in the Northern VA area feel free to contact me. I'll gladly introduce you to the open carry crowd here in VA (where the opencarry.org movement was born) for a dinner out on the town. It's something we do regularly and we enjoy new faces and different perspectives.

    Vr,
    Nakedshoplifter
    vaguninfo.com


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    Nice job Nakedshoplifter, well written. Did you get a reply?
    As for open carry in rural areas vice urban areas, I rarely OC, period. I live in the country nut not more than two miles outside of a small town in Kansas. The last "crime" per se we had was when an ex boy-friend busted down the door of his ex girlfriend and her current boy-friend sent him back out the door with a load of 00buckshot in the chest. It was deemed as justifiable homicide because of the threats he'd made on her and her BF's lives.
    I do carry a pistol in my pickup when I go to town, but only because I don't want to be outgunned when I come home should someone break into my home while I'm gone. (Hasn't happened, yet) But there's always that chance.
    I know I CAN open carry in Kansas and should I feel the need arise I will, til that time I will just keep on doing what I am. I will also keep on supporting the efforts of my brethren and sisters in Texas and the other non-allowed OC states to regain the God-given right of OC.
    AAgain,,well written and please post it if you get a response
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    I have sent an email to Mr. Laska:

    Mr. Laska,

    After reading your essay I have a few comments to make:

    1. I only speak for my experience in Virginia, where open carry is legal, well understood by the populace and LEO's, where I am a resident and also run a website explaining the ins and outs of gun carry by law abiding citizens.

    2. I have never had anyone tell me that my practice of open carry in an urban environment (Northern VA, Fairfax County, just west of D.C., the second most affluent county in the nation) is "rude". In fact, I have never had anyone say anything negative to me about open carry at all. What I have had conveyed to me... by unknown citizens and shopkeepers, is a heartfelt "thank you" for my decision to responsibly carry a sidearm. Or I may get questions such as "Are you a cop?", "Why do you carry?". I take the opportunity to explain my actions and educate about gun rights and responsibilities. My right to carry does not cease or become negated simply because I don't live in the country.

    3. Some states like VA do not allow concealed carry in an establishment that serves alcohol (such as Applebee's), and open carry is the only legal option for the gun carrier. See http://www.vcdl.org/letters/ABC_Letter.pdf and http://www.vcdl.org/letters/VASP_OPEN.pdf for more info. The citizen openly carrying is those establishments is simply obeying the law and not attempting to be "rude".

    4. I take umbrage at your belief that open carry constitutes probable cause for a Terry stop. If no law is being violated, the officer may not stop and disarm me for the purposes of having a non-consensual "chat". Departments in VA understand this and have been trained accordingly. What I *do* support is the officer instigating a consensual conversation with the armed citizen. This has happened to me on multiple occasions, I have audio of one such encounter: http://vaguninfo.com/media/chick.mp3 I support the officer speaking with the citizen for the purpose of determining the mental state of mind, is the person acting nervous, shifty, or evasive. On the flip side of this argument, the officer should be prepared for the citizen to simply tell the officer it's none of his business why the citizen is openly carrying a firearm. I am not cut from that cloth myself, I prefer to be on good terms with the local officers and I enjoy speaking to them about open carry if they ask.

    5. If the officer has no PC that the openly carried gun is stolen, what gives the officer the power (notice I said "power" and not "right") to run a serial number through NCIS? I Think you know the answer to this question. This also varies from state to state depending on local laws. But, here in VA simply openly carrying a firearm is not sufficient PC to stop a citizen, disarm him or her and run the firearm through NCIS. That is considered a violation of the 4th amendment and any negative discovery through NCIS would be invalidated in court.

    6. Further info on open carry in VA can be found here: http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm

    In closing, I gathered from your essay that you recognize a citizen's right to openly carry a firearm and the purpose of your column was to inform line officers what to expect and how to react if and when they encounter someone like myself. I appreciate your information but we also must ensure that officers don't feel they can go on a "fishing trip" and molest a citizen for simple legal gun carry.

    If you ever find yourself in the Northern VA area feel free to contact me. I'll gladly introduce you to the open carry crowd here in VA (where the opencarry.org movement was born) for a dinner out on the town. It's something we do regularly and we enjoy new faces and different perspectives.

    Vr,
    Nakedshoplifter
    vaguninfo.com


    Great Job !

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Tawnos wrote:
    Legba wrote:
    It didn't really strike me as being anti-OC, more an admonition to other police that - like it or not - this is permissable conduct, which is what we've been saying all along.

    I would like to read this Dudley ruling - never heard of someone getting out of a supposed NFA violation.

    -ljp
    The fact that he's advocating stopping someone going peacefully about their business, seizing their property, and then running the numbers from the seized property doesn't strike you as anti-OC? Not to mention calling it "rude" to open carry in an urban environment (though I'm sure he has no problem with officer's doing do). If the officer, a citizen, has the right to OC, why not the other citizens of the same society?

    *edit*
    In fact, the above would be like stopping someone riding a bicycle, taking the bicycle from them, and running the serial number to see if it's stolen. I would call that behavior "anti cyclist," wouldn't you?
    Put electrical tape over the serial number. No numbers to run. Want to see the numbers? Get a warrant.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    You take my weapon, unload my weapon, "hook me up", then act as if all is well, no way sir. You would still be getting that call about federal court!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    His own readers took him to task for both the legal violations he might seem to be advocating (to say it nicely) and for his basic attitude:

    Added Apr 9 2009 11:59AM
    See U.S. v Dudley---the open display of a firearm in a state which permits this is only evidence of legal activity.The officer can not approach a subject on the basis of his or her openly displaying a firearm---only.There must be some other illegal activity taking place.

    The case is one of the arrest of two convicted felons in possession of various firearms to include NFA items.The whole case was lost because the police confronted the twosolely on the basis of a firearm in their vehicle---which was perfectly legal in that state.

    Be careful and know the law!
    4sooth Alert Moderator
    Added Apr 9 2009 5:17PM
    Can you give us a list of open carry, concealed carry, and "thou shalt not carry" states.
    ted Alert Moderator
    Added Apr 9 2009 6:43PM
    See OpenCarry.Org..This site has a good handle on open,concealed and no carry rights in the many states.

    There are forums for each state as well as general discussion,court cases and ongoing activism in other regions.
    4sooth Alert Moderator
    Added Apr 9 2009 10:01PM
    This article is a start, but hey, knock off the "rude" comments dude.Were you one to the police officers in the 60s after segregation was ended told blacks it was rude to hang out near white folks' neighborhoods??

    And what's with the advice for police to take guns and run SN checks - that's ILLEGAL, unless, you had proper grounds (reasonable suspicion of crime afoot) to stop the individual to begin with, AND you have cause to believe that the person is both armed AND dangerous - did you see the tw "ANDs"?
    majstoll
    Seeing that makes me feel better all around, as it shows that there are some LEOs out there who are willing to step up in their "in-house" forums and tell the jerks to knock it off.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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  17. #17
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Mr. Laska has responded.

    Nakedshoplifter,

    I believe you read into my column beyond what I was writing.

    1 & 2) The column was spurred by a Virginia resident, who had encountered officers unfamiliar with the Virginia open carry and had acted heavily with such carry.

    3) Unfortunately, most of our laws are written by the "I think" method, and thus include statements such as those that deny concealed carry in establishments where alcohol is served. While open carry may be the only option available, it may be considered rude in such situations, and also dangerous, especially in true drinking establishments, where those who have imbibed too much may find another's carry their access. Better to ban carry when drinking, and thus not in full control of one's faculties, and permit concealed carry...but that is to be argued through the legislators.

    4) At no time did I advocate open carry as a reason for a Terry stop. Indeed, my aim was to ensure officers research their jurisdiction and understand if they are an open carry state, and then to suggest safe situational handling by the officer who must make a stop of an armed individual. Perhaps what you take umbrage to is my comment that some folks are activists, and I stand by this. Some folks open carry to make a point...as long as it is legal, so be it, but I do find it rude in some situations. I also find it rude to wear hats inside buildings, fashion statement or not. I also find wearing your pants below your butt out of place, again, fashion statement or not. We should exercise discretion in all we do, especially we as proponents of responsible firearms possession and use. Personally I believe I am a safer person for carrying concealed, as it also means I am not marked by the creep looking to score as the first target, and am just another fat guy in the stop and rob if and when bad things happen.

    And I consider myself a firearms rights activist, but I also recognize the need for discretion in what I do, how I do it, and when and where I say it. One may state Eric Holder has an anti gun socialist agenda, but this merely inflames opinion against one. Instead, document his statements, and show the factual basis that flies in opposition to him, and you win converts. Show how he is misinformed or worse in regards to such things as the sources of firearms in Mexico for the cartels (being as they are using true AK-47s and RPG, I know they don't come from north of the border, but more likely far, far west of the border). Same with open carry. It is fine in certain areas, or in circumstances, but other times it is out of place and, well, rude, and also brings a negative image to our fight to show that firearms carry is a good thing.

    5) As with a Terry stop, I am not suggesting that open carry is reason to run serial numbers. However, once a legitimate stop is effected, the officer has a right, even obligation, to ensure the firearm is legal, and that the carrier is legal. ANY armed encounter, from an officer's point of view, is hazardous. An officer does not know the individual being dealt with, whether an upstanding citizen carrying for protection (or even just to make a political statement) or whether a criminal or unbalanced individual out for blood. Indeed, the law officers who most often encounter armed individuals, game officers, will routinely separate the firearm from the bearer, run the firearms, run the individual, and then go on their way with a "have a good hunt" comment.

    6) I appreciate the reference for Virgina open carry information. As I said, I found OpenCarry.org to be a wealth of information on a national aspect.

    I am sure that we will continue to agree to disagree, even as we are both of the same overall mind...

    Thanks for your comments,

    Paul





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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    I have sent an email to Mr. Laska:
    Great letter, but for future reference you should remember that NCIC != NCIS != NICS.

    Those three abbreviations get mixed up a lot, but have nothing to do with one another.

    National Crime Information Center.
    Naval Criminal Investigative Service (and a TV show by the same name).
    National Instant Check System.


  19. #19
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Do you see why I am upset w/ Mr. Laska's response???

    An obligation to run the numbers and the person to make sure they are legal???

    That is exactly why I sterile open carry with electrical tape over my guns serial numbers.

    No ID and no serial numbers for youOfficer Laska.

    Live Free or Die,

    Thundar


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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