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Thread: New Member here, and a few questions

  1. #1
    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Just thought I would introduce myself to the rest of Hawaii. I am Active Duty serving with the US Navy, stationed in Pearl Harbor. I heard about this site through my Dept. head, who is also a member here. I have held, and have kept current both my Texas and Colorado CCW permits, so I can carry when I am back home visiting friends. To be honest, I never really gave "open-carry" a thought until about 6 months ago. I never have really followed the laws of the state to much, whatever I was told by a LEO, I guess I pretty much accepted as "it must be true". I'm glad I have seen the light so to speak.

    The 2 questions I have are ...1) As big an issue as this is, how can we get MORE people here in this state interested in getting the state laws changed to endorse/enforse the rights already granted us by the US Bill of Rights. IMO there seems to be a major lack of support for this, at least here on this forum. I'm no lawyer, but it seems that the state law directly infringe the right to keep AND bear arms. I don't have a problem so much with being required to obtain a permit to carry, open or concealed, but rather with the fact that1 person, not a lawyer or judge, has unilaterally DENIED WITHOUT CAUSE almost every application for a permit, because of the way the law is worded. Hawaii is a "May Issue", rather than a "Shall Issue" state. My 2nd question addresses this.

    2)...There are to bills to the senate right now, SB-327 &SB-328, both dealing with Sec. 134 right now, as to changing to wording from "may issue" to "shall issue" of open carry and concealed carry permits. How can I track the status of these and other bills? I.E. how can I find out when and where these will be discussed, and when is it possible to speak on behalf of, in support of these bills?

    I realize that I lack the education and the knowledge I need to help persue this, thats why I'm here......better late than never I guess. Any comments and/or advise here is greatly appreciated. Thanks


    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    Welcome. Read some of my other posts concerning Hawaii gun laws. Senator Sam Slom ries every year forshall issue. Anyway, are you an NRA Member, Hawaii Rifle Association member?I believe that's your best way to start. Maybe we should get together and do some shooting. E-mail me at nwms.jim@hawaiiantel.net. We can't open carry or anything like that but we can still shoot. By the way Hawaii has not technically violated any of your rights. You can carry at your place of business, home. but that is about it.

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    samaloney2006 wrote:
    "By the way Hawaii has not technically violated any of your rights. You can carry at your place of business, home. but that is about it."
    I disagree. What part of "shall not be infringed" is not being violated here? They are infringing upon my right to keep and bear arms (RTKBA) in public. The assumption that is often made is that the RTKBA is based on self defense. Even if that were the case, how many violent crimes take place outside of your residence or place of employment? As this board is not really a discussion on the BASIS of the 2nd Amendment I will withold my comments on what I really believe the 2nd Amendment is for... :?

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    MockOne.45acp, I agree with you on your position because it is the same positionas mine. I keep beating my head against the wall about this thing and my head quit hurting long time ago bur I will continue.

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    samaloney2006 wrote:
    MockOne.45acp, I agree with you on your position because it is the same positionas mine. I keep beating my head against the wall about this thing and my head quit hurting long time ago bur I will continue.
    Can I borrow your wall? I put a hole in mine.
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Just thought I would introduce myself to the rest of Hawaii. I am Active Duty serving with the US Navy, stationed in Pearl Harbor. I heard about this site through my Dept. head, who is also a member here. I have held, and have kept current both my Texas and Colorado CCW permits, so I can carry when I am back home visiting friends. To be honest, I never really gave "open-carry" a thought until about 6 months ago. I never have really followed the laws of the state to much, whatever I was told by a LEO, I guess I pretty much accepted as "it must be true". I'm glad I have seen the light so to speak.

    The 2 questions I have are ...1) As big an issue as this is, how can we get MORE people here in this state interested in getting the state laws changed to endorse/enforse the rights already granted us by the US Bill of Rights. IMO there seems to be a major lack of support for this, at least here on this forum. I'm no lawyer, but it seems that the state law directly infringe the right to keep AND bear arms. I don't have a problem so much with being required to obtain a permit to carry, open or concealed, but rather with the fact that1 person, not a lawyer or judge, has unilaterally DENIED WITHOUT CAUSE almost every application for a permit, because of the way the law is worded. Hawaii is a "May Issue", rather than a "Shall Issue" state. My 2nd question addresses this.

    2)...There are to bills to the senate right now, SB-327 &SB-328, both dealing with Sec. 134 right now, as to changing to wording from "may issue" to "shall issue" of open carry and concealed carry permits. How can I track the status of these and other bills? I.E. how can I find out when and where these will be discussed, and when is it possible to speak on behalf of, in support of these bills?

    I realize that I lack the education and the knowledge I need to help persue this, thats why I'm here......better late than never I guess. Any comments and/or advise here is greatly appreciated. Thanks
    A little confused...whyr the people in Hawaii 'begging' their guvtofficialsfora 'license' and /or 'permit' to excerise their Rights? This seems comical if it were not so sad. The HawaiianConstitution recognizes the 'U.S. Constitution' as their law.
    "FEDERAL CONSTITUTION ADOPTED

    The Constitution of the United States of America is adopted on behalf of the people of the State of Hawaii."

    The justices have already informed the people in Hawaii that the people have the fundamental Right to bear arms w/ or w/o the Fed Const. (seeHeller).And, the justices hav already informed the people in Hawaii that 'no rule, code, or legislation' can infer w/ the people's fundamental Right. (see Miranda). So why are the people in Hawaii begging their guvt officials for 'permission'?


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    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    A little confused...whyr the people in Hawaii 'begging' their guvtofficialsfora 'license' and /or 'permit' to excerise their Rights? This seems comical if it were not so sad. The HawaiianConstitution recognizes the 'U.S. Constitution' as their law.
    "FEDERAL CONSTITUTION ADOPTED

    The Constitution of the United States of America is adopted on behalf of the people of the State of Hawaii."

    The justices have already informed the people in Hawaii that the people have the fundamental Right to bear arms w/ or w/o the Fed Const. (seeHeller).And, the justices hav already informed the people in Hawaii that 'no rule, code, or legislation' can infer w/ the people's fundamental Right. (see Miranda). So why are the people in Hawaii begging their guvt officials for 'permission'?

    It is because there currently is a state law that requires us to have a permit to carry concealed and there is no such thing as open carry here (and Hawaii is not unique in this respect - look at the MAP here on opencarry.org). The permit process exists so Hawaii can say they are not violating the constitutional rights - I beg to differ - my RIGHT to bear arms IS infringed upon because the Honolulu Chief of Police denies every application submitted by persons who are not Law Enforcement Officers in the state of Hawaii.

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    MachOne.45ACP wrote:
    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    A little confused...whyr the people in Hawaii 'begging' their guvtofficialsfora 'license' and /or 'permit' to excerise their Rights? This seems comical if it were not so sad. The HawaiianConstitution recognizes the 'U.S. Constitution' as their law.
    "FEDERAL CONSTITUTION ADOPTED

    The Constitution of the United States of America is adopted on behalf of the people of the State of Hawaii."

    The justices have already informed the people in Hawaii that the people have the fundamental Right to bear arms w/ or w/o the Fed Const. (seeHeller).And, the justices hav already informed the people in Hawaii that 'no rule, code, or legislation' can infer w/ the people's fundamental Right. (see Miranda). So why are the people in Hawaii begging their guvt officials for 'permission'?

    It is because there currently is a state law that requires us to have a permit to carry concealed and there is no such thing as open carry here (and Hawaii is not unique in this respect - look at the MAP here on opencarry.org). The permit process exists so Hawaii can say they are not violating the constitutional rights - I beg to differ - my RIGHT to bear arms IS infringed upon because the Honolulu Chief of Police denies every application submitted by persons who are not Law Enforcement Officers in the state
    Mach 1 u r still missing.Since urHI const recognizes the U.S. Const is thelaw of the land in HI, and the justices hav statedur fundamental Rights supercede any state 'code'.....why r u still begging theChief of Police for'permission' to exceriseur fundamentalRight?

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    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    Mach 1 u r still missing.Since urHI const recognizes the U.S. Const is thelaw of the land in HI, and the justices hav statedur fundamental Rights supercede any state 'code'.....why r u still begging theChief of Police for'permission' to exceriseur fundamentalRight?
    You haven't met our police dept. here, or our version of the legal system.
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    This is just a few of the statutes here in Hawaii we have to deal with:

    Reference: HRS 134-9


    No person shall carry concealed or unconcealed on the person a pistol or revolver without being licensed to do so under this section or compliance with section 134-5(c) or 134-6.

    §134-5 Possession by licensed hunters and minors; target shooting; game hunting.

    (c) A person may carry unconcealed and use a lawfully acquired pistol or revolver while actually engaged in hunting game mammals, if that pistol or revolver and its suitable ammunition are acceptable for hunting by rules adopted pursuant to section 183D-3 and if that person is licensed pursuant to part II of chapter 183D. The pistol or revolver may be transported in an enclosed container, as defined in section 134-25 in the course of going to and from the place of the hunt, notwithstanding section 134-26. [L 1988, c 275, pt of §2; am L 1997, c 254, §§1, 4; am L 2000, c 96, §1; am L 2002, c 79, §1; am L 2006, c 66, §2]

    §134-9 Licenses to carry. (a) In an exceptional case, when an applicant shows reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property, the chief of police of the appropriate countyMAY grant a license to an applicant who is a citizen of the United States of the age of twenty-one years or more or to a duly accredited official representative of a foreign nation of the age of twenty-one years or more to carry a pistol or revolver and ammunition therefor concealed on the person within the county where the license is granted. Where the urgency or the need has been sufficiently indicated, the respective chief of police may grant to an applicant of good moral character who is a citizen of the United States of the age of twenty-one years or more, is engaged in the protection of life and property, and is not prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm, a license to carry a pistol or revolver and ammunition therefor unconcealed on the person within the county where the license is granted. The chief of police of the appropriate county, or the chief's designated representative, shall perform an inquiry on an applicant by using the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, to include a check of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement databases where the applicant is not a citizen of the United States, before any determination to grant a license is made. Unless renewed, the license shall expire one year from the date of issue.

    (b) The chief of police of each county shall adopt procedures to require that any person granted a license to carry a concealed weapon on the person shall:

    (1) Be qualified to use the firearm in a safe manner;

    (2) Appear to be a suitable person to be so licensed;

    (3) Not be prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm; and

    (4) Not have been adjudged insane or not appear to be mentally deranged.

    (c) No person shall carry concealed or unconcealed on the person a pistol or revolver without being licensed to do so under this section or in compliance with sections 134-5(c) or 134-25.

    §134-13 Revocation of permits. All permits and licenses provided for under this part may be revoked, for good cause, by the issuing authority or by the judge of any court. [L 1988, c 275, pt of §2]

    [§134-25] Place to keep pistol or revolver; penalty. (a) Except as provided in sections 134-5 and 134-9, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:

    (1) A place of repair;

    (2) A target range;

    (3) A licensed dealer's place of business;

    (4) An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;

    (5) A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or

    (6) A police station.

    "Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.

    (b) Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing a loaded or unloaded pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class B felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of §1]

    §134-51 Deadly weapons; prohibitions; penalty. (a) Any person, not authorized by law, who carries concealed upon the person's self or within any vehicle used or occupied by the person or who is found armed with any dirk, dagger, blackjack, slug shot, billy, metal knuckles, pistol, or other deadly or dangerous weapon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and may be immediately arrested without warrant by any sheriff, police officer, or other officer or person. Any weapon, above enumerated, upon conviction of the one carrying or possessing it under this section, shall be summarily destroyed by the chief of police or sheriff.

    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    Mach 1 u r still missing.Since urHI const recognizes the U.S. Const is thelaw of the land in HI, and the justices hav statedur fundamental Rights supercede any state 'code'.....why r u still begging theChief of Police for'permission' to exceriseur fundamentalRight?
    You haven't met our police dept. here, or our version of the legal system.

    Ur rite, I hav not. (Well, yes i did actually. one niten a drunkin'stupperbac n '83ish...but that's another story.)

    R u telling me ur afraid to excerise ur 'fundamental Rights'?A million Americans have died for theseRights yet u r afriad to excerise them? (not talking about bogus 'Nam / Gulf / Iraq invasions.)It's okay if ur afraid.It's not easy tolook in the mirror and admit when 1 is afraid. It also, ain't easy being free.

    It's also ashame everyone wants the other guy to stick his neck out and b the 1st.Where wouldwe b w/o Miranda ? Gandhi? MLK ?How many times wasMLK or thepeople who marched w/himbeaten and thrown in Jail for excerising and/or fighting for there 'civil Rights'?

    Mach 1, are you telling me the HI police and the HI justice system is worse then Alabama's wasfor black'sin the 60's?Blacks were routinely beaten and hungfor demanding 'civil Rights', attacked by killer dogs, had fire horses sprayed on them...yet they did not quit.And ur telling methat HI's police and justice is equall to Alabama's of the 60's for blacks. Are u telling me u are to afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    On Feb 8th, 1968 three black students are killed and twenty-seven are wounded at South Carolina State University in Orangeburg, South Carolina, when state troopers fire on demonstrators demanding the integration of the local bowling alley. The incident is known as the Orangeburg Massacre.Is HI's police force and justice systemas bad asthis was40 yrs ago? Then why r u afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    At the Dem Convnt in the late 60's, close to 700 people were arrested, w/ medics treating close to a 1000. Citizens beaten by police. Even residents sitting on their porches were clubbed by police. Now, is HI's police dept this bad or the justice system this bad for u 40 years later? Then why r u afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    There's thousands of stories of people who didn't quit fighting for what they believed was Right and Just. Are u 1 of 'em? 1 who didn't quit?

    Being a solid role model for children isn't easy.If ur afraid...it's okay. Not everyone can b a leader. Not everyone is meant to be a role model foryoung people.

    As the 'Stranger' in High Plains Drifter said, "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid."


    Excerising1's Rights is not always ez. At times,it takes a little sacrafice. Sometimes u prevail...and sometimesu go to jail.In fact,sometimes u get a bad judge who doesn't give a rat's ass about what a 'code' says...and1sits in jail and loses hisjob. (yeah, that includes me).Even the U.S. supr crt justices have stated in part, '...no court will easily grant you your Rights. The Citizen must fight for them...."

    Guessit'smuch ezier to b a slave...but I would not know. And I pray for theinner strenght to continue to never know. I guess that's why they also makeSocialist and Communist countries.Sum people need to b told what to do and sadly i guess, meant to b slaves.

    Jesus Christ broke no law yet the powers of the daystill imprisoned him and crucified him.That man stood up for what he believed wasRight and Just.R u that kind of man?

    Then there's that other saying that goes sorta like, "A coward dies a thousands deaths. A brave man dies but once."

    When u read this again Mach1,or anyone else for that matter,read it as if u and I are sitting having a normal conversation over a beer. That is the way it was written.







  12. #12
    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    Mach 1 u r still missing.Since urHI const recognizes the U.S. Const is thelaw of the land in HI, and the justices hav statedur fundamental Rights supercede any state 'code'.....why r u still begging theChief of Police for'permission' to exceriseur fundamentalRight?
    You haven't met our police dept. here, or our version of the legal system.

    Ur rite, I hav not. (Well, yes i did actually. one niten a drunkin'stupperbac n '83ish...but that's another story.)

    R u telling me ur afraid to excerise ur 'fundamental Rights'?A million Americans have died for theseRights yet u r afriad to excerise them? (not talking about bogus 'Nam / Gulf / Iraq invasions.)It's okay if ur afraid.It's not easy tolook in the mirror and admit when 1 is afraid. It also, ain't easy being free.

    It's also ashame everyone wants the other guy to stick his neck out and b the 1st.Where wouldwe b w/o Miranda ? Gandhi? MLK ?How many times wasMLK or thepeople who marched w/himbeaten and thrown in Jail for excerising and/or fighting for there 'civil Rights'?

    Mach 1, are you telling me the HI police and the HI justice system is worse then Alabama's wasfor black'sin the 60's?Blacks were routinely beaten and hungfor demanding 'civil Rights', attacked by killer dogs, had fire horses sprayed on them...yet they did not quit.And ur telling methat HI's police and justice is equall to Alabama's of the 60's for blacks. Are u telling me u are to afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    On Feb 8th, 1968 three black students are killed and twenty-seven are wounded at South Carolina State University in Orangeburg, South Carolina, when state troopers fire on demonstrators demanding the integration of the local bowling alley. The incident is known as the Orangeburg Massacre.Is HI's police force and justice systemas bad asthis was40 yrs ago? Then why r u afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    At the Dem Convnt in the late 60's, close to 700 people were arrested, w/ medics treating close to a 1000. Citizens beaten by police. Even residents sitting on their porches were clubbed by police. Now, is HI's police dept this bad or the justice system this bad for u 40 years later? Then why r u afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    There's thousands of stories of people who didn't quit fighting for what they believed was Right and Just. Are u 1 of 'em? 1 who didn't quit?

    Being a solid role model for children isn't easy.If ur afraid...it's okay. Not everyone can b a leader. Not everyone is meant to be a role model foryoung people.

    As the 'Stranger' in High Plains Drifter said, "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid."


    Excerising1's Rights is not always ez. At times,it takes a little sacrafice. Sometimes u prevail...and sometimesu go to jail.In fact,sometimes u get a bad judge who doesn't give a rat's ass about what a 'code' says...and1sits in jail and loses hisjob. (yeah, that includes me).Even the U.S. supr crt justices have stated in part, '...no court will easily grant you your Rights. The Citizen must fight for them...."

    Guessit'smuch ezier to b a slave...but I would not know. And I pray for theinner strenght to continue to never know. I guess that's why they also makeSocialist and Communist countries.Sum people need to b told what to do and sadly i guess, meant to b slaves.

    Jesus Christ broke no law yet the powers of the daystill imprisoned him and crucified him.That man stood up for what he believed wasRight and Just.R u that kind of man?

    Then there's that other saying that goes sorta like, "A coward dies a thousands deaths. A brave man dies but once."

    When u read this again Mach1,or anyone else for that matter,read it as if u and I are sitting having a normal conversation over a beer. That is the way it was written.
    Rayce....as much as I would like to agree with your reply, I dont.........

    It is not that I am afraid to excercise my "rights", fundamental or not, nor is it an issue of FEAR. I open and/or concealed carry when the law makes it legal for me to do so. Do I agree with the laws on the books in the State of Hawaii? NO!

    Do I justify my feelings about these laws by openly BREAKING the laws currently enforced by the state, county, and local PD? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    As much as I would like to be "THAT GUY" as you put it, in the case of gun laws which I feel and understand to be a violation of my civil rights, I don't have that option at this time in my life. As I stated earlier, I am a member of the US Navy, active-duty. I will NOT jepordize my career by possibly being arrested on WEAPONS charges. I am bound by the oath I took when I enlisted, and by the contract I signed, to obey all laws...FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL LAWS, whether I agree with them or not. Add to that..I DON'T have the funds to hire a lawyer to defendmyself in a case like this, then add to that being taken to Court-Martial for dis-obeying orders persuant to the UCMJ, being dis-honorably discharged from the military, possibly spending time in prison, and having THAT follow me for the rest of my life.

    I would much rather fight the system LEGALLY, by getting the laws changed to where it is legal for me to open or concealed carry.

    As for your reference to the civil rights movement in the 60's, I don't believe hasa lot ofrelavence here, while I hold the upmost respect for their actions and accomplishments, they wereNOT ONLY fighting for their civil rights, they were fighting, in most cases, FOR THEIR LIVES, THEIR VERY RIGHT TO LIVE.

    AS FOR THE REST OF YOUR "RESPONSE".....IFI WAS "HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITH YOU OVER A BEER" AS YOU PUT IT, I WOULD HAVE LEFT YOU SITTING THERE WITH THE TAB. WHILE YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION, AS AM I, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT PURPOSELY BREAKING THE LAW SIMPLY BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH IT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GET THE LAW CHANGED. IF THAT IS YOUR BELIEF, MORE POWER TO YOU, SIR. PLEASE, COME TO HAWAII, AND OPEN CARRY IN PROTEST. ALL I CAN DO FOR YOU AT THIS POINT IS WISH YOU GOOD LUCK.

    AND AS FOR YOUR PERSONAL ATTACK ON MY BELIEFS AND MORAL VALUES.... WITH ALL DO RESPECT.....MAN, I REALLY WISH I COULD PUT IT HERE, BUT I LIKE IT HERE, AND I'M STAYING HERE ON THIS FORUM. I CAN READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF YOUR POST.

    I WILL SAY THIS.....YOU DON'T KNOW ME.....AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE "RIGHT" TO JUDGE ME. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I STAND FOR, OR WHAT I BELIEVE IN, OTHER THAN WHAT I HAVE POSTED HERE.


    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Rayce Bannon wrote:
    Mach 1 u r still missing.Since urHI const recognizes the U.S. Const is thelaw of the land in HI, and the justices hav statedur fundamental Rights supercede any state 'code'.....why r u still begging theChief of Police for'permission' to exceriseur fundamentalRight?
    You haven't met our police dept. here, or our version of the legal system.

    Ur rite, I hav not. (Well, yes i did actually. one niten a drunkin'stupperbac n '83ish...but that's another story.)

    R u telling me ur afraid to excerise ur 'fundamental Rights'?A million Americans have died for theseRights yet u r afriad to excerise them? (not talking about bogus 'Nam / Gulf / Iraq invasions.)It's okay if ur afraid.It's not easy tolook in the mirror and admit when 1 is afraid. It also, ain't easy being free.

    It's also ashame everyone wants the other guy to stick his neck out and b the 1st.Where wouldwe b w/o Miranda ? Gandhi? MLK ?How many times wasMLK or thepeople who marched w/himbeaten and thrown in Jail for excerising and/or fighting for there 'civil Rights'?

    Mach 1, are you telling me the HI police and the HI justice system is worse then Alabama's wasfor black'sin the 60's?Blacks were routinely beaten and hungfor demanding 'civil Rights', attacked by killer dogs, had fire horses sprayed on them...yet they did not quit.And ur telling methat HI's police and justice is equall to Alabama's of the 60's for blacks. Are u telling me u are to afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    On Feb 8th, 1968 three black students are killed and twenty-seven are wounded at South Carolina State University in Orangeburg, South Carolina, when state troopers fire on demonstrators demanding the integration of the local bowling alley. The incident is known as the Orangeburg Massacre.Is HI's police force and justice systemas bad asthis was40 yrs ago? Then why r u afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    At the Dem Convnt in the late 60's, close to 700 people were arrested, w/ medics treating close to a 1000. Citizens beaten by police. Even residents sitting on their porches were clubbed by police. Now, is HI's police dept this bad or the justice system this bad for u 40 years later? Then why r u afraid to at least 'try' to excerise ur fundamental Rights?

    There's thousands of stories of people who didn't quit fighting for what they believed was Right and Just. Are u 1 of 'em? 1 who didn't quit?

    Being a solid role model for children isn't easy.If ur afraid...it's okay. Not everyone can b a leader. Not everyone is meant to be a role model foryoung people.

    As the 'Stranger' in High Plains Drifter said, "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid."


    Excerising1's Rights is not always ez. At times,it takes a little sacrafice. Sometimes u prevail...and sometimesu go to jail.In fact,sometimes u get a bad judge who doesn't give a rat's ass about what a 'code' says...and1sits in jail and loses hisjob. (yeah, that includes me).Even the U.S. supr crt justices have stated in part, '...no court will easily grant you your Rights. The Citizen must fight for them...."

    Guessit'smuch ezier to b a slave...but I would not know. And I pray for theinner strenght to continue to never know. I guess that's why they also makeSocialist and Communist countries.Sum people need to b told what to do and sadly i guess, meant to b slaves.

    Jesus Christ broke no law yet the powers of the daystill imprisoned him and crucified him.That man stood up for what he believed wasRight and Just.R u that kind of man?

    Then there's that other saying that goes sorta like, "A coward dies a thousands deaths. A brave man dies but once."

    When u read this again Mach1,or anyone else for that matter,read it as if u and I are sitting having a normal conversation over a beer. That is the way it was written.
    Rayce....as much as I would like to agree with your reply, I dont.........

    It is not that I am afraid to excercise my "rights", fundamental or not, nor is it an issue of FEAR. I open and/or concealed carry when the law makes it legal for me to do so. Do I agree with the laws on the books in the State of Hawaii? NO!

    Do I justify my feelings about these laws by openly BREAKING the laws currently enforced by the state, county, and local PD? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    As much as I would like to be "THAT GUY" as you put it, in the case of gun laws which I feel and understand to be a violation of my civil rights, I don't have that option at this time in my life. As I stated earlier, I am a member of the US Navy, active-duty. I will NOT jepordize my career by possibly being arrested on WEAPONS charges. I am bound by the oath I took when I enlisted, and by the contract I signed, to obey all laws...FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL LAWS, whether I agree with them or not. Add to that..I DON'T have the funds to hire a lawyer to defendmyself in a case like this, then add to that being taken to Court-Martial for dis-obeying orders persuant to the UCMJ, being dis-honorably discharged from the military, possibly spending time in prison, and having THAT follow me for the rest of my life.

    I would much rather fight the system LEGALLY, by getting the laws changed to where it is legal for me to open or concealed carry.

    As for your reference to the civil rights movement in the 60's, I don't believe hasa lot ofrelavence here, while I hold the upmost respect for their actions and accomplishments, they wereNOT ONLY fighting for their civil rights, they were fighting, in most cases, FOR THEIR LIVES, THEIR VERY RIGHT TO LIVE.

    AS FOR THE REST OF YOUR "RESPONSE".....IFI WAS "HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITH YOU OVER A BEER" AS YOU PUT IT, I WOULD HAVE LEFT YOU SITTING THERE WITH THE TAB. WHILE YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION, AS AM I, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT PURPOSELY BREAKING THE LAW SIMPLY BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH IT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GET THE LAW CHANGED. IF THAT IS YOUR BELIEF, MORE POWER TO YOU, SIR. PLEASE, COME TO HAWAII, AND OPEN CARRY IN PROTEST. ALL I CAN DO FOR YOU AT THIS POINT IS WISH YOU GOOD LUCK.

    AND AS FOR YOUR PERSONAL ATTACK ON MY BELIEFS AND MORAL VALUES.... WITH ALL DO RESPECT.....MAN, I REALLY WISH I COULD PUT IT HERE, BUT I LIKE IT HERE, AND I'M STAYING HERE ON THIS FORUM. I CAN READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF YOUR POST.

    I WILL SAY THIS.....YOU DON'T KNOW ME.....AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE "RIGHT" TO JUDGE ME. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I STAND FOR, OR WHAT I BELIEVE IN, OTHER THAN WHAT I HAVE POSTED HERE.

    It is my understanding that in HI, the HI const recognizes the U.S. Const is the law of the land.Must u obey UNconstitutional codes? Did u not swear an oath to affirm and protect the U.S. Const from any enemy?Is it possbile thatpublic servants whopass UNconstititional codescould be anenemy?

    U said in ur oath umust obey orders, then said u don't have the legal funds. Onehas nothing to do w/ the other.

    If ur 'commander in chief'orders youtostart rounding up Americans and taking away their Right to self protection, would u comply w/ that order or law? Or to begin lynching people? There was a time when lynching was perfectly lega...would u hav stood there while a friend of urs was being lynched for the color of his skin...if stepping in to help ur friend was a possible code violation or was going to jepordize ur career?

    All i asked was if u were afriad?There were no harsh words and no judgements. No one attacked u, ur personal character, or ur values....i merelyasked a few questions. Shame u read something between the lines.

    The 60's references were to show that sometimes public servant do not hear the crys of their Masters. Sometimes in Americapeople go to jail fighting for their Rights, fighting for their public servants to obey the constitution....and sometimes in America people die fighting for their Rights.Sometimes people march 'Legally' and many times people are 'Legally' clubbed...sometimes people are'Legally clubbed to death.' It's an UNfortunate result of public servants not listening to their Master. Thankfully, because of those people, Citizens obtained Civil Rights...even though it's not 'fundamental Rights'....it's still better then no Rights.I understand udo not want to jeopodize ur careertoexcerse ur Rights, nor to fight for ur Rights cuz u don't have legal funds. I get it.

    When Christ was 'legally' being beatin to death, and 'legally'forced to carry a monsterous cross thru the streets while being whipped....would u hav stepped in to protect this man even knowing u may in violation of some code or u mayalso be placed on a cross with spikes in ur hand and feet?

    Also thx for the invite to HI to protest for u, ur friends, and ur family. As i stated earlierlots of people want someone else to stick their neck out 1st. I'll pass on the offer but thx just the same.

    Besides, based on ur comments, if I were arrested in HIfor'excersing my Right to protect myself at whatever means necessary', u by ursworn oath,would be cheering on the law enforcement...even if they were beating me to death...cuz u stated earlier u would not jeopodize ur career for a possible code violation.U alsodo not have legal funds, nor are u interested in possibly breaking an administrativecode ....even if the code is UNconstitutional. I fully understand were u r coming from.

    I will leave u with one last question. When is it deemed appropriate to use violence against a guvt Agent? (When they break into ur home w/o a warrant? When they are clubbinga friend of urs todeath? If they are gang banging ur wife, ur girlfriend, or ur mother? When they force u to do things that r UNconstitutional?) Just tell me when is it appropriate?


  14. #14
    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Mr. Bannon.....it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that you do not fully understand the reason this forum is here. This forum is to discuss topics concerning the open-carry of a sidearm, nothing more. It is NOT driven by race or religion, but rather the leagality of the state and local laws that violate the 2nd Ammendant, specifically.

    Being in the military, I am under oath to obey ALL LAWFUL ORDERS of those appointed over me. That includes following any local and state laws wherever I happened to be stationed. I DO NOT HAVE THE POWER to choose which orders I will follow, or which laws I will obey, simply for the reason that I do not agree with them. Once again, I DON"T HAVE THAT OPTION! The issue at hand HERE is to get the laws changed so that there isn't a law that makes it illegal to carry a handgun. And I haven't read a SINGLE post on this forum where someone was blatently and knowingly breaking the law to challange these laws. THE STREET ISN"T A COURTROOM, AND COPS ARE NOT JUDGES OR LAWYERS.

    Law Enforcement Officers, when you think about it, are really the ones that are caught up in the middle of this. I have spoken to several LEOs here about their opinion on this, MOST OF THEM agree with the fight to change the laws to make it legal, BUT THEY DON"T HAVE THAT CHOICE EITHER! They are required to ENFORCE the laws in effect. If you are openly or concealing a handgun on you WITHOUT a permit, here in the State of Hawaii, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW....PERIOD. Even if it is in protest, the street is not the place to do this. That is what we are trying to change here, and once again, it is not drivin by race or religion.

    Some of your posts that I have read on other threads here seem to me to reference either religion (one mans fight for humanity) or the civil rights movement during the 60's and early 70's (the right of equality not based on race, coloror gender) . While I agree with most of the points you're making, they do not apply here, to this specific issue.
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Being in the military, I am under oath to obey ALL LAWFUL ORDERS of those appointed over me. That includes following any local and state laws wherever I happened to be stationed. I DO NOT HAVE THE POWER to choose which orders I will follow, or which laws I will obey, simply for the reason that I do not agree with them. Once again, I DON"T HAVE THAT OPTION! The issue at hand HERE is to get the laws changed so that there isn't a law that makes it illegal to carry a handgun. And I haven't read a SINGLE post on this forum where someone was blatently and knowingly breaking the law to challange these laws. THE STREET ISN"T A COURTROOM, AND COPS ARE NOT JUDGES OR LAWYERS.

    Law Enforcement Officers, when you think about it, are really the ones that are caught up in the middle of this. I have spoken to several LEOs here about their opinion on this, MOST OF THEM agree with the fight to change the laws to make it legal, BUT THEY DON"T HAVE THAT CHOICE EITHER! They are required to ENFORCE the laws in effect. If you are openly or concealing a handgun on you WITHOUT a permit, here in the State of Hawaii, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW....PERIOD. Even if it is in protest, the street is not the place to do this. That is what we are trying to change here, and once again, it is not drivin by race or religion.

    When did 'peace officers'magically becomeLaw Enforcement Officers (LEO's)? (LOL)

    Marlbaro, how can a Citizen of Hawaiibein violation of anadministrative firearm code, when HI recognizes that in their state, the U.S. Const is the 'law of the land'? Espceially since the highest justices hav ruled that theRight to bear arms is an individual Right, and thus a fundamental and individual Right in HI. And if u add in the fact thatthehighest justices hav also ruled that'....no rule, no code, or legislation can intefer w/ ur Rights.' (see Miranda).

    Whether it b excerising ur Right to bear arms or excerising ur Right to Travel, it makes no difference. The issue at hand is, does an HI Citizen adhere to the 'law of the land' or follow an administrative code? What trumps what? What if they conflict w/ each other?

    If the administrative codes supercede the 'law of the land', thenthe'law of the land' is worthlessfor anything other then toliet paper,yes?It's that simple. That is the issue here.

    Example: Let's say I'm excersing my fundamental Right to Travel. I cross the street. Copwitnesses me excersing my Right to Travel, however he calls for a 5 car back up. Theysurround me. The Cop gives me a ticket for 'jaywalking'. Now, either I hav the Right to Travel or I don't, yes? Thereis nogrey area. Either I do or I don't.


    Does theCop give a rat's ass bout any of my Rights? Nope.Today's Cop attitude is...."what's all this fasicination about Rights, sir? U canonly travel where my boss gives u permission to cross the street. It's right here in the code. U don't like it, talk to the judge. And if u ask me one more question or refuse to show me ur ID, I'm taking u into jail. Yeah, I know no one was injuried butI still want to see urID. U hav a problem w/that, sir?" That's theCop mentality of today.

    You also wrote, " I am under oath to obey ALL LAWFUL ORDERS of those appointed over me. That includes following any local and state laws wherever I happened to be stationed. I DO NOT HAVE THE POWER to choose which orders I will follow, or which laws I will obey, simply for the reason that I do not agree with them. Once again, I DON"T HAVE THAT OPTION."

    Marlboro,3 things are confusingin what u wrote.

    a) Soldiers used this defense at the nuremberg trails and they were found guilty. The received, life in prison and/or a death sentence.

    b) U must obey all 'lawful orders'. Well, give me an example of what is an UNlawful order (to u)?

    c) If ur everordered to shoot Americans on American soil will u follow that order? (I think some people mite like to hear a military mentality on this issue.)

    btw, if u hav jaywalked in ur community Marlbaro u hav broken the 'law'. And according to u, u then knowingly violated ur sworn oath to obey 'all' laws, yes?The scale of the code violation is not the issue. The point is, if u hav jaywalked, then uapparently canchoose which local codes to follow regardless of any oath u took.

    Cops judge people all the time. If their buddy (or judge, or congressman) violates the law...most times it's no biggie, who cares. The violatorgoes home. Ifan average Citizenviolates a code, andsimply ask a few questions- the Citizen most likely is harrassed and then sent to jail.Let's not b.s. each other. Listen to the recorded young man being harrassed by TSA for simply asking questions about his property that was not a threat to anyone. The 'public servant' TSA's cursed at the Citizen and hassassed the hell out of him...all for simply asking a few questions. That UNfortunately is the majority of LEO's mentality today.

    Cops are stuck in the middle u say. Then they should resgin if it takes them a heculean effort to affirm the law of the their land. btw, when is the last time u hav read about any police union activily pushing to get a firearm code changed so that Citizens canOC and/or CC? (lol) If u 'ever' see one, let me know.


    Lastly, yesi have used historic events to get a point across.People excersing one Right to gain another Right. And what people would sacrafice inorder for them to regain their Rights.

    If u re-read what I wrote, I used Christ, not a Relgious deity, but as a man. And my question to u still stands.

    If uwitnessed Law Enforcement Officersbeating and whipping a manto death in the street, a man you know injuried no one, wouldu step inand try tosave his life if your actions meant breaking an administrative code which u sworean oath to...and ur career was in jeoporady? U remained silent...so I hav ur answer.








  16. #16
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    Mr. Bannon,

    I believe you are just a forum troll. If it were as black and white as you suggest, this website would have no reason to exist. The balance between State Law and Constitutional Law is a tough one.

    Am I "afraid" to break the state laws which are currently in place even though they violate the U.S. Constitution by infringing on my right to bear arms? Yes. I am not willing at this time to make the sacrifices I would end up making if I were to break the laws. Does that make me any less patriotic or less of an American? No God Damn way!

    I also am afraid that at some point I will have to make the descision on whether I will turn over my weapons because some unconstitutional new law (state or federal) says I have to. Refusal would be suicide.

    I prefer to take that battle a different route. Go as far as possible to LEGALLY achieve your goals. Basically, if Johnny Law came knocking this evening and said I would have to hand over my guns and ammunition I have no doubt that I would be outgunned (even though I have more guns than I and my family can all use at once). So I would be dead if I resisted. If we all band together and tell the government that we believe in the constitutional rights to keep and bear arms and that we will NOT ACCEPT any changes or reduction of those rights it will stand a much better chance than just another guy in a shoot out.

    Case in point: Randy Weaver. The story you heard on the TV or read in the paper is not the same story you wouldhear from Randy Weaver. The Branch Dividians in Waco, TX is another example. Just like with Randy Weaver, the media branded them as whacko fanatics who committed suicide. The BATFE and the FBI murdered them - but dead guys can't tell their side of the story. Forensics does you no good if the scene is cleaned up professionally. Watch "WACO - Rules of Engagement" if you don't know what I'm talking about...

    Would I die to protect the loss of our rights who so many have fought for and died for in the past? Yes. Would I rather do it peacefully? Yes, because I would like to live to enjoy what I was fighting for!

  17. #17
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    MachOne.45ACP wrote:
    Mr. Bannon,

    I believe you are just a forum troll. If it were as black and white as you suggest, this website would have no reason to exist. The balance between State Law and Constitutional Law is a tough one.
    Rayce,

    I do not believe that you are necessarily a troll but I believe that you are falling into the trap that so many gun owners fall into.

    You are asking "Why are we so far from the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment when it is so clear?"

    Trying to answer to that question is an exercise in futility.

    What we all need to do is:

    1) Understand the current federal and state laws.

    2) Work both locally and federally to repeal and mitigate the effects of these laws

    3) Repeat

    The anti's understand how to incrementally advance their agenda while we sputtered and demanded complete recognition of our rights. We need to use their incremental tactics against them.

    Freedom demands an intelligent fight.


    John


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    This issue is in fact, black and white. Good or evil. Call it what u may. Do u follow an administrative code or the law of the land? Period.

    Either a Cop adhere's to the oath he affirmed of the 'law of the land' or he sells his community out for a paycheck. It's that simple.

    If u are serious about changing code 'nonviolently'. I meanreally serious. Then simply OC in public, (if it's an administrative code violation), and do it directly in front of a police officer.The Copwill eithergive u aticket or u will b arrested.NoViolence.

    When u seethe 'judge' explain ur confusion of the codes vs. the 'law of the land'.He will probably find u quilty of a misdeamenor. Boom - now u hav a case to appeal all the way up to urstate supr crt. Without a shotbeing fired. Are u willing to do even just this?

    In fact, I will gladly send u a$100.00 (for legal expenseswhether u hire an attorney or u go proper). If u go the jury route, and the jury finds u 'not guilty' - there's a HUGEvictory. R u willing even to do just this little simple action? Will everyone on this forum give u a $100.00? Ask them.

    What i also do not understand about Mach 1 is if he's not willing to go to court and go the 'non-violent' route but if 'they' come to take his firearms he will fight to the death?

    Yes, the media is biased. That's part of the reason I do not even own a TV. We all hav only so much time on this planet. To waste hours a day in front of a TV taking time away from myfamily, my friends,motorcycles, hiking n the mtns, the gym, theshooting range seems completely rediculous. Especially since most TV and TV commericals portray men as weak pathedtic pussified males who are afraid of their own shadow. To subject young males w/ a growing mind, that being a pussified male is the 'acceptable' verision of an American man i think is insaine.

    However, i will venture to a bar and watch the Red Wings in the Stanley Cup. GO WINGS!! The only difference between a Republican and a Democrate is the spelling. And to throw Weaver and Waco into this thread is assinine and completely at the other end of the spectrum.

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