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Thread: Let's just give the pirates our ships - bullets first, ARRGH!

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    Please CLICK & DIGG:

    http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-2...ts-first-ARRGH

    SNIP

    Continuing pirate attacks on American flagged ships on the high seas is a call to arms for commercial sailors and ship owners alike. And this weekend's Wall Street Journal took note of this call to arms in an article entitled "Attack Raises Debate on Guns for Sailors."

    Unfortunately, the views of those interviewed by the Journal fell into the either/or propositions of either "[g]ive me mounted machine guns" or just keep those "fire hoses under pressure so they are ready to blast pirates." But there's a middle ground - let sailors carry the same arms at sea they can carryin their home townswhile shopping at themall or hunting in the woods. . . .

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    Sounds like a good idea. No need for the merchant sailors to be defenseless.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    It's interesting how the media always puts this sort of thing in terms of a "debate." It seems to me that there's little to debate-- you can either give someone the means to try to defend oneself, or send them among the wolves with a hope and a prayer. It's a no-brainer.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    While not really surprised, I was nonetheless appalled to hear that they had nothing but HOSES (speaking of the recent event in particular). They can't even repel a couple measly small-town boarders? Lead is in order!

    The whole hostage situation, OTOH, is, IMO an international embarassment...just my 2c....

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    Why can't they at least throw them a cocktail; from molitov of course:shock:. Those pirates aren't fire proof.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Advocating meeting violence with violence? That only begets more violence. What would the Rev. Col. Cooper say about that?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Advocating meeting violence with violence? That only begets more violence. What would the Rev. Col. Cooper say about that?

    Yata hey
    "Lock and load!" or some variation on the theme.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Advocating meeting violence with violence? That only begets more violence. What would the Rev. Col. Cooper say about that?

    Yata hey
    "Lock and load!" or some variation on the theme.
    “One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”
    – Cooper vs. Terrorism

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Advocating meeting violence with violence? That only begets more violence. What would the Rev. Col. Cooper say about that?

    Yata hey
    "Lock and load!" or some variation on the theme.
    “One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”
    – Cooper vs. Terrorism

    Yata hey
    Now your talking about a "fair trade" situation. That simply can't be tolerated!

    (sarcasm in full bloom)



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    The headline read:
    "US sea capt. freed from pirates in swift firefight"


    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    My Dad is a Maritime Law attorney - that's a lawyer who deals with legal issues arising from seafaring. He says that having armed crews is problematic for international ships because it would be illegal in some ports of call for there to be any weapons on a mechant vessel. Military vessels making ports of call in such places must be granted waivers in order to enter the territorials waters of such places. Those places are not likely to grant waivers for merchant ships.

    U.S. policy regarding piracy on the high seas was established by President Thomas Jefferson and AFAIK has not been officially changed since - no tribute (ransom) paid and no quarter given.

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    I was watching the news on the hijacking all week. One question that never got asked (or answered) was...

    How the hell did a bunch of pirates on a tiny little pleasure boat manage to get aboard a whopping big container ship in the first place ? Do these pirates actually use grappling hooks or get the ship to lower cargo nets ? Do they wave a few AK-47's at a massive steel frieghter and cower the crew into lowering boarding ladders or bosun's chairs ?

    LAst year when the ship carrying munitions got hijacked, they said the pirates forced the ship to stop by flashing an RPG-7 at them. First, assuming the pirates could even HIT the frieghter with an RPG-7, what is it gonna do ? Blow a 2 or 3 inch hole in the hull above the waterline ? Hardly. Even a HE shaped charge is only gonna cause minor damage unless they hit a fuel tank. And I don't think some Somali goon is gonna knpow the pinpoint positions of vulnerablilty on a frieghter. it isn't the friggin Death Star; a hit from an RPG isn't gonna blow it into a million pieces.

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    XD-GEM wrote:
    My Dad is a Maritime Law attorney - that's a lawyer who deals with legal issues arising from seafaring. He says that having armed crews is problematic for international ships because it would be illegal in some ports of call for there to be any weapons on a mechant vessel. Military vessels making ports of call in such places must be granted waivers in order to enter the territorials waters of such places.
    OK, but seems to me there is a difference between military vessals and crews with garden variety guns on board - ask your dad which ports would refuse entry or board and inspect an American flagged vessal looking to seize or prosecute for ordinary rifles and shotguns?

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    I'm sure you all have noticed how :what:big eyed the media is that merchant marine ships are sailing the seas completely unarmed. They (the main stream media) are beside themselves that sailors would go "where Pirates are" unarmed. I've heard more than one talking head ask "why don't they have guns on board these ships?"

    Its almost as if the media suddenly thought...."hey... a gun might be useful if pirates were attacking you." Do they not see that some other form of pirate robs banks, convenience stores, jewelry stores, hotel clerks, taxi drivers, people out for a jog, ...

    Is this the same media that questions why I need to carry a gun?

    Why is a gun suddenly the obvious tool for a sailor on a ship, but not for a citizen wanting to protect his self and family?



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    doug23838 wrote:
    Why is a gun suddenly the obvious tool for a sailor on a ship, but not for a citizen wanting to protect his self and family?
    That is an excellent question, and one that I hope will be asked often.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Shotgun wrote:
    doug23838 wrote:
    Why is a gun suddenly the obvious tool for a sailor on a ship, but not for a citizen wanting to protect his self and family?
    That is an excellent question, and one that I hope will be asked often.
    One of the talking heads who was a guest consultant on Fox News stated, "That every person has the right to self-defense." Don't wonder if he is never invited back.

    No cite avail. I watched this part in between my flu/med induced naps.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    XD-GEM wrote:
    My Dad is a Maritime Law attorney - that's a lawyer who deals with legal issues arising from seafaring. He says that having armed crews is problematic for international ships because it would be illegal in some ports of call for there to be any weapons on a mechant vessel. Military vessels making ports of call in such places must be granted waivers in order to enter the territorials waters of such places. Those places are not likely to grant waivers for merchant ships.
    That's fine, then those countries can just look elsewhere to get the stuff they want.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:
    doug23838 wrote:
    Why is a gun suddenly the obvious tool for a sailor on a ship, but not for a citizen wanting to protect his self and family?
    That is an excellent question, and one that I hope will be asked often.
    One of the talking heads who was a guest consultant on Fox News stated, "That every person has the right to self-defense." Don't wonder if he is never invited back.

    No cite avail. I watched this part in between my flu/med induced naps.

    Yata hey
    Well, Grapeshot, it's obvious that you experienced a fever/med's induced halucination. (sarcasm applies)

    Seriously

    I don't think these liberal pundits have the foggiest clue as to what they say from one minute to the next.

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    Over on A15.com someone posted an article regarding a US-flagged merchant ship named 'The Black Eage' (Nice name !)

    There were pics of the ships' armory. Racks of military-grade body armor, four pump twelve gauge shotguns, two M1A's (or maybe M14's) and a half-dozen pistols, beretta M92's IIRC.

    I think two reasonably-trained ship's crew armed with scoped M1A's could eliminate any pirate threat bopping about on the waves from a safe distance before the leeetle boat could come within AK47 range--especially 'Somali Grade' AK47 range, which appears to be about twenty feet.

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    CaptainFinn wrote:
    I think two reasonably-trained ship's crew armed with scoped M1A's could eliminate any pirate threat bopping about on the waves from a safe distance before the leeetle boat could come within AK47 range--especially 'Somali Grade' AK47 range, which appears to be about twenty feet.
    That's mostly true, for now perhaps. It assumes that a huge ship with a crew of only 20 men can spare a lookout all the time. The pirates could bring more men and more firepower, but they'd be better off looking for an unarmed ship to plunder.

    The Obama administration, like all these modern idiot presidents, is talking big about "ending piracy" blah blah. They're missing the point.

    The US government should be concerned with protectng US vessels, and the hell with the rest; they can handle it themselves. The goal here should be a situation where a pirate runs the other way as soon as he sees the stars and stripes flying from a merchant ship's mast. That flag should mean nothing but trouble for a pirate, the threat of the armed men aboard that ship should convinve the pirate that he would be better served finding some other ship to go after.

    Id we can reach that point (and it really wouldn't take much), then the US government has fulfilled its duty.

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    Mike wrote:
    XD-GEM wrote:
    My Dad is a Maritime Law attorney - that's a lawyer who deals with legal issues arising from seafaring. He says that having armed crews is problematic for international ships because it would be illegal in some ports of call for there to be any weapons on a mechant vessel. Military vessels making ports of call in such places must be granted waivers in order to enter the territorials waters of such places.
    OK, but seems to me there is a difference between military vessals and crews with garden variety guns on board - ask your dad which ports would refuse entry or board and inspect an American flagged vessal looking to seize or prosecute for ordinary rifles and shotguns?
    I asked him about this, and he couldn't name them off the top of his head. (He's semi-retired and hasn't had to deal with this particular issue in awhile; but said he'd try to look it up for me, if he remembers). He did say that if you check the countries that gave us grief over arming pilots, you'd probably have a good list. That problem was solved, so this one ought to be doable as well.

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    I used to be a commercial fisherman off Florida's east coast, Piracy was alive and wellback in the late 80's just as it is now.
    And we were only in 45-65 foot Fiberglass hulled vessels with a total crew of 3 men. While near Bahamian waters we had to keep an eye out for dirtbags trying to forcibly board our vessel, and the ones on boardthat were legal to own a firearm, carried one to defend oursleves against any such attacks!
    To top it off, the Bahamian coast guard were some of the worst piracy criminals in the area! They would try to say we were illegally fishing in Bahamian waters, attempt to board the vessels, if they were successful they would take over the helm and the boat would get docked on the main island, the crew held in jail until the vessels owner would bail them out and they would get their boat back completely stripped of all valuables.

    The 103' US Coast Guard cutter "Point Barnes" stationed in Ft. Pierce FL has saved alot of commercial boats from being taken by criminals based in the Bahama's. it is amazing how a single deck cannon can dissuade would be pirates and drug runners alike. If a commercial shipping vessel was know to be armed, I have a feeling they would be left alone for easier targets. Just like how when we go armed, Would be criminals tend to avoid us.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    SNIP: it is amazing how a single deck cannon can dissuade would be pirates and drug runners alike...
    This is simply OC on the high seas with the exact same benefits and risks we landlubbers experience everyday.

    Of course it works!

    These US-flagged ships are used to deliver US aid to starving nations. Are they really going to say we can't come to their port if we're armed?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    CaptainFinn wrote:
    I think two reasonably-trained ship's crew armed with scoped M1A's could eliminate any pirate threat bopping about on the waves from a safe distance before the leeetle boat could come within AK47 range--especially 'Somali Grade' AK47 range, which appears to be about twenty feet.
    That's mostly true, for now perhaps. It assumes that a huge ship with a crew of only 20 men can spare a lookout all the time. The pirates could bring more men and more firepower, but they'd be better off looking for an unarmed ship to plunder.

    The Obama administration, like all these modern idiot presidents, is talking big about "ending piracy" blah blah. They're missing the point.

    The US government should be concerned with protectng US vessels, and the hell with the rest; they can handle it themselves. The goal here should be a situation where a pirate runs the other way as soon as he sees the stars and stripes flying from a merchant ship's mast. That flag should mean nothing but trouble for a pirate, the threat of the armed men aboard that ship should convinve the pirate that he would be better served finding some other ship to go after.

    Id we can reach that point (and it really wouldn't take much), then the US government has fulfilled its duty.
    A lot like OCing isn't it - tells the BGs to pick a softer target !!!

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    A lot like OCing isn't it - tells the BGs to pick a softer target !!!
    And deters further while you are around the area.

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