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Thread: UOC in State/National parks in CA?

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    With all of this hoopla over concealed carry or loaded carry in National parks... I haven't been able to find an answer to this question...

    Can we UOC in state parks, or national parks here in CA?

    For instances...
    Joshua Tree Natl. Park?
    Sequoia Natl. Park?
    Yosemite Natl. Park?

    Transportation of firearms to your campsite in CA is legal through 12026.2 (11)

    Code:
    (11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be construed to override the statutory authority granted to the Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing the administration of parks and campgrounds.

    I am a bit curious about the last part, it does not make sense to me.

    There is also 12031 (l) [That's lowercase "L"] that states it is legal to possess/keep a loaded firearm in your campsite for protection.

    Code:
    (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

    But I can't find anything about Unloaded Open Carry in State or National parks. If I'm out hiking with the family, I would like to be secure in knowing that carrying is legal should we come across hostile wildlife.

    Thanks!
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  2. #2
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    Anyone?

    I still haven't been able to find anything prohibiting open unloaded carry...

    Also looks like Sequoia is a National Forest not a National Park.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    National Forest=OK
    National/State Park=No Bueno

    Check the California Open Carry FAQ for some specifics.

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    Thanks pullnshoot25.

    I mixed up my search, I couldn't get results because I was searching through National Park info.

    I was able to find this on BLM's website about restrictions to firearms and camping in National Forests in CA:

    http://www.blm.gov/ca/news/2001/07/f...irearm_fo.html

    and

    http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/Rec...ing.print.html

    Although... I can't find specific laws cited on BLM's website or in the open carry pamphlet. It just "generally" provides a description.

    There is also mention of "in accordance with state laws". Given a national forest is unincorporated territory, I could Loaded Open Carry, as well as Unloaded Open Carry? Is that correct?

    I'll probably be staying at Lodgepole.
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    I would have to assume you are correct. Unincorporated=go balls out. Of course, there are little nuances within BLM land like not shooting near waterways or some crap like that but it should be listed.

    You can always just *cough*go fishing*cough* and carry concealed

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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    I would have to assume you are correct. Unincorporated=go balls out. Of course, there are little nuances within BLM land like not shooting near waterways or some crap like that but it should be listed.

    You can always just *cough*go fishing*cough* and carry concealed
    Unloaded if concealed...the statue specifically says a concealed unloaded firearm is exempt if coming or going to or from the field hunting or fishing.

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    demnogis wrote:
    With all of this hoopla over concealed carry or loaded carry in National parks... I haven't been able to find an answer to this question...

    Can we UOC in state parks, or national parks here in CA?

    Code:
    This paragraph shall not be construed to override the statutory authority granted to the Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing the administration of parks and campgrounds.
    The above quoted paragraph will not override any Department of Parks and recreation, or any other state or local government rule/law put in place to prohibit firearms.




    Even BLM land seems to be somewhat sketchy as to where you would legally be able to LOC.

    For instance the BLM near me is open to all hunting during the respective seasons, but unless you are in a designated target practice area. Target shooting is prohibited. So by the letter of the law it seems I would be able to LOC if hunting, or at least had a hunting license with me (you could say you were hunting for things such as coyote).

    Lets assume I have left my hunting license at home, and I am just on the BLM land to hike. It an area closed to Target shooting, only legally open to the discharge of a firearm while hunting. Can I LOC? Since the discharge of a firearm is prohibited unless hunting, and I don't have my hunting license with me (meaning I cant legally hunt) I think I would technically be required to UOC.

    Add to that some areas of BLM are only open to shotgun(buckshot only) and archery hunting, I would assume even the possession of a handgun would not be legal in these areas.

    I love CA PC code....

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    There's a lot of confusing of terms and mixing of unrelated fed and state law in this thread.

    No firearms are allowed in State Parks and no firearms are allowed in National Parks! Period. There are additional laws, not just CA PC 12031 and 12025. Don't forget that. Just because you may be clear of one state law, you may not be clear of another, or of unrelated federal law. Any exemptions to a CA PC section mean nothing to a federal law. Also, don't confuse National Forests with National Parks. These are very different.

    The codes are listed in the California Open Carry Flyer. ( http://www.californiaopencarry.org/C...aOpenCarry.pdf )They are 36 CFR 2.4 (a) for NP and CCR Title 14, Div 3, Chap 1, s 4313 (a) for SP. Google them if you want to know more.

    As for National Forest and BLM, Open Carry is legal, see:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/prog.../welcome.shtml
    http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/prog/rec...ing.print.html

    There are almost no Federal restrictions in these places, but State law does apply. So 12031 applies. Much of the territory is unincorporated but there are areas where shooting (and therefore loading) is restricted. 12025 still applies, and yes you may be able to use the 12027(g) exemption but you must be a licensed hunter in an area where you currently can be hunting. Be very careful with this one. But UOC is always OK in NF and BLM. LOC is OK where there are no roads, developments, or bodies of water.

    Now, back to National Parks. If you are thinking of the recent rule changes to allow firearms, that was only for CCW holders, plus the ruling has been suspended. Long story short - no operable or unlocked firearms in National Parks.

    And back to CA State Parks (not to be confused with National Parks in CA) no operable or unlocked firearms ever. Period.


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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    demnogis wrote:
    Can we UOC in state parks, or national parks here in CA?

    For instances...
    Joshua Tree Natl. Park?
    Sequoia Natl. Park?
    Yosemite Natl. Park?

    Transportation of firearms to your campsite in CA is legal through 12026.2 (11)
    And let me address these examples specifically.

    All the parks you listed here are National parks, run by the US Federal Government, Department of the Interior. Per 36 CFR 2.4 (a) no firearms are allowed unless "packed, cased or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use".

    The exemption you cite is a CA PC code and has NO bearing on federal law. Further, the exemptions to 12031 are CA PC and have NO bearing on federal law.


  10. #10
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    So basically in State park no firearms at all, ever...

    That's great. I think next year's "family camping" trip will be in the actual national FOREST part of Sequoia.

    To think... If hiking and the family and I come across a very angry bear, or worse yet some very angry and armed people, we're SoL.

    Why are these laws still in place?
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    demnogis wrote:
    So basically in State park no firearms at all, ever..
    Correct, but the parks you listed are NOT State Parks. You listed National Parks, but no firearms are allowed there either.

    Edit: There is both a Sequoia National Forest and a Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Park. Different animals. Which are you going to?

    demnogis wrote:
    That's great. I think next year's "family camping" trip will be in the actual national FOREST part of Sequoia.
    Yep. National Forests are "free" lands.


  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Maybe I should clarify the types of "parks".

    National Parks, Federal, National Park Service, US Department of the Interior
    National Forests, Federal, US Forest Service, US Department of Agriculture
    BLM Land, Federal, Bureau of Land Management, US Department of the Interior
    State Parks, State, California Department of Parks and Recreation
    Regional Parks, some are county owned, some are city owned

    All have their own different sets of laws and regulations.

    Generally, it breaks down like this for firearms:

    National Parks - NO firearms (but locked up in vehicle is OK)
    National Forests - firearms OK
    BLM - firearms OK
    State Parks - NO firearms (but locked up in vehicle is OK)
    Regional Parks - NO firearms (usually)

    Edit: I forgot about National Monuments. I never really understood who/what governed these. According to the wikipedia page, "National monuments can be managed by one of several federal agencies; the National Park Service, United States Department of Agriculture's U. S. Forest Service, United States Fish and Wildlife Service or by the Bureau of Land Management."


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    While on the hunt/fishing trip, the CA F&G code takes precedence. Therefore, LCC is granted to, during and from the expedition.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    While on the hunt/fishing trip, the CA F&G code takes precedence. Therefore, LCC is granted to, during and from the expedition.
    This is not true. F&G code cannot exempt/preempt you from other state or federal laws. It is conceivable that you could violate state PC code, state F&G code, and federal CFR all at the same time, or any combination of said. It's just that one typically hunts where it is allowed, and then 12031 doesn't apply, and you can use 12027(g) to be exempt from 12025. Further, the to/from the expedition language is in PC not F&G, and it states firearms must be unloaded.
    Code:
    (g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
    other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
    engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
    unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
    expedition.
    However, you can't hunt in a SP or NP. Even if you could (there are probably areas that are excepted that you'll point out to me) then you're still bound by any/all local, state, and federal laws.

    Just because you are not violating a F&G code doesn't mean you can't be violating some other code. Let me give just one example:

    You're hunting in the Mendocino National Forest, with your license, in the correct area/season. You are driving on M10 (a dirt road). You have a rifle in your vehicle with rounds in the magazine (attached to the rifle, say, tube fed) but no round in the chamber. In this scenario you are not violating Fish and Game code:
    2006. It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
    vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
    along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
    open to the public.
    A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
    of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the
    firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the magazine.
    But you are violating 12031, because M10 is a county road and the NF forbids shooting from any public road, which triggers the "prohibited area" language in 12031.


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