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The term Unloaded

MACHINEGUNMATT

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Does anyone know where I can find out ifammo in the clip of the gun can be stored in thevehicle with the gun as long as the clip is out. Is it still considered unloaded? Does the ammo have to be stored seperately from the gun and the clip?



My intention is to carry the gun minus the clip but have the clip loaded and in a seperate location in the vehicle. Is that legal?
 

Venator

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MACHINEGUNMATT wrote:

Does anyone know where I can find out ifammo in the clip of the gun can be stored in thevehicle with the gun as long as the clip is out. Is it still considered unloaded? Does the ammo have to be stored seperately from the gun and the clip?

My intention is to carry the gun minus the clip but have the clip loaded and in a seperate location in the vehicle. Is that legal?




First off edit your post to get rid of all the empty space under your post.

Second, you can have a loaded magazine in the same case as your firearm as long as the gun is unloaded and secured as described by law.

Below is the transport law. I have underlined the important parts. Notice no mention is made of where the ammo can be therefore it is legal to have ammo in the same case or area of the handgun as long as all the other requirements are made..

TRANSPORTING A HANDGUN:



750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.

Sec. 231a.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
 

FatboyCykes

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Hmm, so I can put my unloaded Pistol, in it's original case, with loaded mag(s) also in this case, as long as this case is in my trunk? No need for a trigger lock or ammo stored in separate location within the vehicle, or the case it's self to be locked?
 

zigziggityzoo

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FatboyCykes wrote:
Hmm, so I can put my unloaded Pistol, in it's original case, with loaded mag(s) also in this case, as long as this case is in my trunk?  No need for a trigger lock or ammo stored in separate location within the vehicle, or the case it's self to be locked?

Correct.

If the gun is in the passenger compartment of the vehicle, you're in violation of the law.

If your vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be unloaded, locked, and inaccessible to the driver.
 

FatboyCykes

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What about a small SUV? It's a hatch back I guess you'd call it. But it does have a compartment for the spare tire that I could place the case in. So with no trunk, that would probably be my best option eh?
 

DrTodd

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As long as it is not immediately accessible... which is left for the court to determine. You would PROBABLY be OK with it in the spare tire compartment.
 

conservative85

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zigziggityzoo wrote:
FatboyCykes wrote:
Hmm, so I can put my unloaded Pistol, in it's original case, with loaded mag(s) also in this case, as long as this case is in my trunk? No need for a trigger lock or ammo stored in separate location within the vehicle, or the case it's self to be locked?

Correct.

If the gun is in the passenger compartment of the vehicle, you're in violation of the law.

If your vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be unloaded, locked, and inaccessible to the driver.

I have a Criminal Procedure book from the State Police and it says that the gun must be in a case designed to hold a gun, the word locked is not in the wording. Plus it says nothing as to wherethe ammo must be stored.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

I carried my pistol behind my truck seat in a wooden case unlatched facing up so that when Ipracticed leaning forward, tipping the seat forward with my elbow, the casewould open up enough for me to get my fingers in the case enough to open it further& get the gun out. Since it is an Auto the clip was in the door handle or on the seat. The pistol was always placed in the case with the slide back so as to Lock & Load quicker.
 

Taurus850CIA

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conservative85 wrote:
zigziggityzoo wrote:
FatboyCykes wrote:
Hmm, so I can put my unloaded Pistol, in it's original case, with loaded mag(s) also in this case, as long as this case is in my trunk? No need for a trigger lock or ammo stored in separate location within the vehicle, or the case it's self to be locked?

Correct.

If the gun is in the passenger compartment of the vehicle, you're in violation of the law.

If your vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be unloaded, locked, and inaccessible to the driver.

I have a Criminal Procedure book from the State Police and it says that the gun must be in a case designed to hold a gun, the word locked is not in the wording. Plus it says nothing as to wherethe ammo must be stored.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

I carried my pistol behind my truck seat in a wooden case unlatched facing up so that when Ipracticed leaning forward, tipping the seat forward with my elbow, the casewould open up enough for me to get my fingers in the case enough to open it further& get the gun out. Since it is an Auto the clip was in the door handle or on the seat. The pistol was always placed in the case with the slide back so as to Lock & Load quicker.
Wow, that's definitely material for an argument.
 

Venator

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Taurus850CIA wrote:
conservative85 wrote:
zigziggityzoo wrote:
FatboyCykes wrote:
Hmm, so I can put my unloaded Pistol, in it's original case, with loaded mag(s) also in this case, as long as this case is in my trunk? No need for a trigger lock or ammo stored in separate location within the vehicle, or the case it's self to be locked?

Correct.

If the gun is in the passenger compartment of the vehicle, you're in violation of the law.

If your vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be unloaded, locked, and inaccessible to the driver.

I have a Criminal Procedure book from the State Police and it says that the gun must be in a case designed to hold a gun, the word locked is not in the wording. Plus it says nothing as to wherethe ammo must be stored.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

I carried my pistol behind my truck seat in a wooden case unlatched facing up so that when Ipracticed leaning forward, tipping the seat forward with my elbow, the casewould open up enough for me to get my fingers in the case enough to open it further& get the gun out. Since it is an Auto the clip was in the door handle or on the seat. The pistol was always placed in the case with the slide back so as to Lock & Load quicker.
Wow, that's definitely material for an argument.

What argument? Con85 is right it doesn't have to be locked and separate from ammo. The only place that mentions a locked gun case is for a CPL holder that has had an alcoholic drink, then the weapon must be unloadedbe in a locked case when in a vehicle or in the trunk. See below.

28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

Sec. 5k.

(1) Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to a chemical analysis under this section. This section also applies to individuals listed in section 12a(a) to (f).

DELETE PARTS

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.
 

Taurus850CIA

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, Michigan, USA
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Venator wrote:
Taurus850CIA wrote:
conservative85 wrote:
zigziggityzoo wrote:
FatboyCykes wrote:
Hmm, so I can put my unloaded Pistol, in it's original case, with loaded mag(s) also in this case, as long as this case is in my trunk? No need for a trigger lock or ammo stored in separate location within the vehicle, or the case it's self to be locked?

Correct.

If the gun is in the passenger compartment of the vehicle, you're in violation of the law.

If your vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be unloaded, locked, and inaccessible to the driver.

I have a Criminal Procedure book from the State Police and it says that the gun must be in a case designed to hold a gun, the word locked is not in the wording. Plus it says nothing as to wherethe ammo must be stored.

(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

I carried my pistol behind my truck seat in a wooden case unlatched facing up so that when Ipracticed leaning forward, tipping the seat forward with my elbow, the casewould open up enough for me to get my fingers in the case enough to open it further& get the gun out. Since it is an Auto the clip was in the door handle or on the seat. The pistol was always placed in the case with the slide back so as to Lock & Load quicker.
Wow, that's definitely material for an argument.

What argument? Con85 is right it doesn't have to be locked and separate from ammo. The only place that mentions a locked gun case is for a CPL holder that has had an alcoholic drink, then the weapon must be unloadedbe in a locked case when in a vehicle or in the trunk. See below.

28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

Sec. 5k.

(1) Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to a chemical analysis under this section. This section also applies to individuals listed in section 12a(a) to (f).

DELETE PARTS

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.
I have no issue with the "locked" part, or ammo location.

in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms
is a case designed to latch closed considered closed if it is unlatched?

is the case designed for the storage of firearms, or is it a wooden humidor or cigar box that happens to be the right size for a handgun?

edit:formatting
eta: Obviously these concerns are only for a non-CPL holder.
 

Taurus850CIA

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(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle. (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.


This is taken from a criminal procedure book that many MSP are educated from. It seems to paraphrase law. If an officer is educated solely on this text, and not the specific wording of the law, there may be an argument.
 

Taurus850CIA

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I'm not saying that what Con85 did was not legal, only that it may have caused an officer to take issue. Just trying to point out the risks, that's all.
 

Venator

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Taurus850CIA wrote:
28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

Sec. 5k.

(1) Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to a chemical analysis under this section. This section also applies to individuals listed in section 12a(a) to (f).

DELETE PARTS

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.
I have no issue with the "locked" part, or ammo location.

in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms
is a case designed to latch closed considered closed if it is unlatched?

is the case designed for the storage of firearms, or is it a wooden humidor or cigar box that happens to be the right size for a handgun?

edit:formatting
eta: Obviously these concerns are only for a non-CPL holder.
It doesn't define a compartment or container. In regards to the above (CPL and booze) the container must be lockable. If a cigar box can be locked I would think it would suffice.
 

Taurus850CIA

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Venator wrote:
Taurus850CIA wrote:
28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

Sec. 5k.

(1) Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to a chemical analysis under this section. This section also applies to individuals listed in section 12a(a) to (f).

DELETE PARTS

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.
I have no issue with the "locked" part, or ammo location.

in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms
is a case designed to latch closed considered closed if it is unlatched?

is the case designed for the storage of firearms, or is it a wooden humidor or cigar box that happens to be the right size for a handgun?

edit:formatting
eta: Obviously these concerns are only for a non-CPL holder.
It doesn't define a compartment or container. In regards to the above (CPL and booze) the container must be lockable. If a cigar box can be locked I would think it would suffice.
Right. I think so too. I just noticed the discrepancy between the law and the criminal procedure book.
 

jbusa

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According to my CPL instructors, (without a CPL) you can not carry the ammo in the same case as the gun and any magazines need to be empty as well. Ammo and guns must be separate.

To tired to look through the book, I will tomorrow when I can "decipher" it.



SA
 

Venator

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SIDE ARM wrote:
According to my CPL instructors, (without a CPL) you can not carry the ammo in the same case as the gun and any magazines need to be empty as well. Ammo and guns must be separate.

To tired to look through the book, I will tomorrow when I can "decipher" it.



SA
Not true, ammo can be in the same case. For example you can have the unloaded gun and two full magazines in the same case and you are legal. I'm not saying they may not give you some crap about it, but it's legal. Print out the above pertinent law and keep it in your case.
 

Veritas

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On the subject of transporting (but with a twist): I carry a pistol with me almost everywhere I go; unless I'm planning to go somewhere to drink. Sometimes I end up carrying it into a restaurant to meet up with friends or something. If we get to drinking, I'll take my pistol out to my vehicle before I sip my first beverage. Since I drive an SUV, there is no trunk. What I do is unload the weapon, lock the magazine in the glove box (actually locking it with they key), and place the pistol itself behind the driver seat. Sometimes I'll go so far as to field strip the pistol and place it behind my seat.

This way if I am pulled over, I cannot be accused of carrying while under the influence. I don't want to get into discussions about DUI... it takes more than 2 beers over a 3 or 4 hour period to render me legally DUI; but only one sip of beer to charge me with a felony for carrying while drinking.

Can anyone confirm if my system is legally acceptable? I'd rather fix any issues with it now than to have to reverse engineer a defense later.
 

Venator

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Veritas wrote:
On the subject of transporting (but with a twist): I carry a pistol with me almost everywhere I go; unless I'm planning to go somewhere to drink. Sometimes I end up carrying it into a restaurant to meet up with friends or something. If we get to drinking, I'll take my pistol out to my vehicle before I sip my first beverage. Since I drive an SUV, there is no trunk. What I do is unload the weapon, lock the magazine in the glove box (actually locking it with they key), and place the pistol itself behind the driver seat. Sometimes I'll go so far as to field strip the pistol and place it behind my seat.

This way if I am pulled over, I cannot be accused of carrying while under the influence. I don't want to get into discussions about DUI... it takes more than 2 beers over a 3 or 4 hour period to render me legally DUI; but only one sip of beer to charge me with a felony for carrying while drinking.

Can anyone confirm if my system is legally acceptable? I'd rather fix any issues with it now than to have to reverse engineer a defense later.

If you meet the following you should be okay. My spin in your case is that you have to have the handgun in a locked container with the ammo separate. That ammo doesn't have to be locked up. In fact you could have the ammo on you. But if you just put the handgun behind the seat with no case you are in violation. The statute doesn't address whether the weapon is fielded stripped or not.

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.
 
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