The term Unloaded

Veritas · Apr 24, 2009

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Venator wrote:

If you meet the following you should be okay. My spin in your case is that you have to have the handgun in a locked container with the ammo separate. That ammo doesn't have to be locked up. In fact you could have the ammo on you. But if you just put the handgun behind the seat with no case you are in violation. The statute doesn't address whether the weapon is fielded stripped or not.

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.

Thanks for the info. So in essence, carrying a spare gun case in my vehicle (and putting a lock on it) would suffice for storing the pistol. I'll continue with locking the mag in the glovebox though. I'd put the pistol in the glovebox, but it's filled with other stuff.

Another question regarding drinking and carrying: I know that as a non-carrying driver you are NOT required to submit to PBT or field sobriety test under the false threat of losing your drivers license. Contrary to the popular myth, your drivers licenses will NOT be suspended for failure to comply (but it can be suspended if you are taken into custody and refuse to submit to the sobriety test at the police station). My CPL instructor told us that by having a CPL, that you MUST consent to PBT's and field sobriety tests whenever an officer asks (at the side of the road or even just walking down the street); even if you are not carrying your weapon. I can't believe this would be true... do you know if it is?

I ask not becaue I am a raging alcoholic or anything, but I prefer not to submit to any sort of test or exam unless the law compells me to in order to maintain my driving and concealed carrying permits.

Bronson · Apr 24, 2009

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By accepting a Concealed Pistol License you are giving implied conset for testing.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1ckxss45erx4ifbylbdexd45))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-28-425k&query=on&highlight=concealed%20AND%20pistol%20AND%20license

28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

Sec. 5k.

(1) Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to a chemical analysis under this section. This section also applies to individuals listed in section 12a(a) to (f).

(2) An individual shall not carry a concealed pistol while he or she is under the influence of alcoholic liquor or a controlled substance or while having a bodily alcohol content prohibited under this section. A person who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

(a) If the person was under the influence of alcoholic liquor or a controlled substance or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance, or had a bodily alcohol content of .10 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or $100.00, or both. The court shall order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol to permanently revoke the license. The concealed weapon licensing board shall permanently revoke the license as ordered by the court.

(b) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .08 or more but less than .10 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or $100.00, or both. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol to revoke the license for not more than 3 years. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court.

(c) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .02 or more but less than .08 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual the license to revoke the license for 1 year. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court. The court shall notify the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol if an individual is found responsible for a subsequent violation of this subdivision.

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.

(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

(5) Before an individual is required to submit to a chemical analysis under subsection (4), the peace officer shall inform the individual of all of the following:

(a) The individual may refuse to submit to the chemical analysis, but if he or she chooses to do so, all of the following apply:

(i) The officer may obtain a court order requiring the individual to submit to a chemical analysis.

(ii) The refusal may result in his or her license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended or revoked.

(b) If the individual submits to the chemical analysis, he or she may obtain a chemical analysis described in subsection (4) from a person of his or her own choosing.

(6) The collection and testing of breath, blood, and urine specimens under this section shall be conducted in the same manner that breath, blood, and urine specimens are collected and tested for alcohol- and controlled-substance-related driving violations under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923.

(7) If a person refuses to take a chemical test authorized under this section, the peace officer shall promptly report the refusal in writing to the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license to the individual to carry a concealed pistol.

(8) If a person takes a chemical test authorized under this section and the test results indicate that the individual had any bodily alcohol content while carrying a concealed pistol, the peace officer shall promptly report the violation in writing to the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license to the individual to carry a concealed pistol.

(9) As used in this section:

(a) “Alcoholic liquor” means that term as defined in section 105 of the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1105.

(b) “Controlled substance” means that term as defined in section 7104 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7401.

Bronson

Veritas · Apr 24, 2009

imported post

Bronson wrote:

By accepting a Concealed Pistol License you are giving implied conset for testing.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1ckxss45erx4ifbylbdexd45))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-28-425k&query=on&highlight=concealed%20AND%20pistol%20AND%20license

28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.

Sec. 5k.

(1) Acceptance of a license issued under this act to carry a concealed pistol constitutes implied consent to submit to a chemical analysis under this section. This section also applies to individuals listed in section 12a(a) to (f).

(2) An individual shall not carry a concealed pistol while he or she is under the influence of alcoholic liquor or a controlled substance or while having a bodily alcohol content prohibited under this section. A person who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

(a) If the person was under the influence of alcoholic liquor or a controlled substance or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance, or had a bodily alcohol content of .10 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or $100.00, or both. The court shall order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol to permanently revoke the license. The concealed weapon licensing board shall permanently revoke the license as ordered by the court.

(b) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .08 or more but less than .10 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or $100.00, or both. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol to revoke the license for not more than 3 years. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court.

(c) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .02 or more but less than .08 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00. The court may order the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual the license to revoke the license for 1 year. The concealed weapon licensing board shall revoke the license as ordered by the court. The court shall notify the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the individual a license to carry a concealed pistol if an individual is found responsible for a subsequent violation of this subdivision.

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.

(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

(5) Before an individual is required to submit to a chemical analysis under subsection (4), the peace officer shall inform the individual of all of the following:

(a) The individual may refuse to submit to the chemical analysis, but if he or she chooses to do so, all of the following apply:

(i) The officer may obtain a court order requiring the individual to submit to a chemical analysis.

(ii) The refusal may result in his or her license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended or revoked.

(b) If the individual submits to the chemical analysis, he or she may obtain a chemical analysis described in subsection (4) from a person of his or her own choosing.

(6) The collection and testing of breath, blood, and urine specimens under this section shall be conducted in the same manner that breath, blood, and urine specimens are collected and tested for alcohol- and controlled-substance-related driving violations under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923.

(7) If a person refuses to take a chemical test authorized under this section, the peace officer shall promptly report the refusal in writing to the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license to the individual to carry a concealed pistol.

(8) If a person takes a chemical test authorized under this section and the test results indicate that the individual had any bodily alcohol content while carrying a concealed pistol, the peace officer shall promptly report the violation in writing to the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license to the individual to carry a concealed pistol.

(9) As used in this section:

(a) “Alcoholic liquor” means that term as defined in section 105 of the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1105.

(b) “Controlled substance” means that term as defined in section 7104 of the public health code, 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7401.

Bronson

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Venator · Apr 24, 2009

imported post

Veritas wrote:

Venator wrote:

If you meet the following you should be okay. My spin in your case is that you have to have the handgun in a locked container with the ammo separate. That ammo doesn't have to be locked up. In fact you could have the ammo on you. But if you just put the handgun behind the seat with no case you are in violation. The statute doesn't address whether the weapon is fielded stripped or not.

(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. So in essence, carrying a spare gun case in my vehicle (and putting a lock on it) would suffice for storing the pistol. I'll continue with locking the mag in the glovebox though. I'd put the pistol in the glovebox, but it's filled with other stuff.

Another question regarding drinking and carrying: I know that as a non-carrying driver you are NOT required to submit to PBT or field sobriety test under the false threat of losing your drivers license. Contrary to the popular myth, your drivers licenses will NOT be suspended for failure to comply (but it can be suspended if you are taken into custody and refuse to submit to the sobriety test at the police station). My CPL instructor told us that by having a CPL, that you MUST consent to PBT's and field sobriety tests whenever an officer asks (at the side of the road or even just walking down the street); even if you are not carrying your weapon. I can't believe this would be true... do you know if it is?

I ask not becaue I am a raging alcoholic or anything, but I prefer not to submit to any sort of test or exam unless the law compells me to in order to maintain my driving and concealed carrying permits.

Not an attorney, but I believe this is intended to apply if you are carrying a concealed weapon under the CPL. If you have no weapon and are walking down the street and they demand a test, I would refuse and work it out in court later.

Bronson · Apr 24, 2009

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Veritas wrote:

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Click to expand...

(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

Doesn't say anything about when you're not carrying. Only if the officer believes you may be.

Bronson

SpringerXDacp · Apr 25, 2009

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Veritas wrote:

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Click to expand...

No. There is no Michigan Statue that requires a CPL holder to disclose anything if he or she is not carrying. See the article below about a CPL/DUI case in Troy, Michigan.

http://www.mi-dui-central.com/content/cases/18.php

Venator · Apr 25, 2009

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SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

No. There is no Michigan Statue that requires a CPL holder to disclose anything if he or she is not carrying. See the article below about a CPL/DUI case in Troy, Michigan.

http://www.mi-dui-central.com/content/cases/18.php

What case number was it I couldn't find it. Let me know and I'll copy and paste it here.

SpringerXDacp · Apr 25, 2009

imported post

Venator wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

No. There is no Michigan Statue that requires a CPL holder to disclose anything if he or she is not carrying. See the article below about a CPL/DUI case in Troy, Michigan.

http://www.mi-dui-central.com/content/cases/18.php

Click to expand...

What case number was it I couldn't find it. Let me know and I'll copy and paste it here.

No luck here at this end either. I'm beginning to think this is just some fictitious casean attorney used to drum-up clientele for DUI cases. :? Either way, it's a good read andit does appear to be convincing.

Veritas · Apr 26, 2009

imported post

Bronson wrote:

Veritas wrote:

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

Doesn't say anything about when you're not carrying. Only if the officer believes you may be.

Bronson

Interesting... I think this aptly summarizes my answer. The phrase "A peace officer who has PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE an individual is CARRYING A CONCEALED PISTOL IN VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION..."

Put simply, you have absolute right to refuse a PBT and/or field sobriety test when driving, and your license cannot be suspended for it (no matter what an officer tells you). However, the officer, with PROBABLE CAUSE to suspect DUI, can arrest you and take you to the precinct to administer a more formal test. Unlike a PBT, this formal test is admissible in court and generally recognized as being accurate. If you choose to refuse this formal test, then your license is immediately suspended under the implied consent laws. Sure, you avert a DUI (assuming your drunk), but you are treated more harshly than what you might ordinarily expect for a first DUI offense. Your insurance company will likely view a refusal to consent as an admission of guilt when it comes to jacking up your rates.

I've never submitted to a PBT or field test... any time an officer has asked, I've explained my position on not succumbing to voluntary searches or the performance of tests, and that if they truly suspect me of DUI, to arrest me and compel me to take the formal examination. However, since I've had a CPL, this issue has never come up. Having read that section of the law you posted, I am to believe that an officer can merely assert that he has "probable cause" to suspect that I'm carrying a weapon and compel me to take a PBT or field test while driving.

I suppose I can later challenege the LEO's "probable cause" later in court. But I'm not sure how successful that would be. Does anyone know what might constitute probable cause to suspect that a driver is carrying concealed? Perhaps a bulge in your pocket? A visible gun case? The smell of gunpowder? Any ideas? Because I don't like the idea that having a CPL compels me to waive my right to an involuntary examination at the side of the road. I can go into great lenghts about how those are often used against you to determine folks as DUI when they really aren't.

Veritas · Apr 26, 2009

imported post

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Venator wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

I understand that I must submit while carrying... my question is whether or not I must consent if I'm NOT carrying. In other words, does having a CPL when I'm NOT carrying constitute implied consent?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

No. There is no Michigan Statue that requires a CPL holder to disclose anything if he or she is not carrying. See the article below about a CPL/DUI case in Troy, Michigan.

http://www.mi-dui-central.com/content/cases/18.php

Click to expand...

What case number was it I couldn't find it. Let me know and I'll copy and paste it here.

Click to expand...

No luck here at this end either. I'm beginning to think this is just some fictitious casean attorney used to drum-up clientele for DUI cases. :? Either way, it's a good read andit does appear to be convincing.

I've read this before, but I was also unable to confirm the case number. However, this case does not appear to have anything to do with a CPL implied consent case... it deals with implied consent as a result of accepting a license to drive.

By accepting a license to drive, you agree to give complied consent AT JAIL, but not at the side of the road. Failure to honor your contractual agreement to consent results in an immediate suspension of your drivers license for 18 months.

And as I understand the law, just by having a CPL, WHETHER YOU ARE CARRYING OR NOT, you contractually agree to waive the right to refuse the PBT/field test. So basically, if you rinse your mouth with Scope before going out and your stopped and asked to take a PBT, you are either going to jail for DUI or having your CPL revoked; depending on whether or not you submit or refuse. I can understand this rule if you are actually carrying, but if you have no weapon on you, I don't see how this is fair.

It's tantamount to revoking the driving privilidges of a pedestrian who refuses a PBT.

SpringerXDacp · Apr 27, 2009

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Veritas wrote:

SNIP
And as I understand the law, just by having a CPL, WHETHER YOU ARE CARRYING OR NOT, you contractually agree to waive the right to refuse the PBT/field test. So basically, if you rinse your mouth with Scope before going out and your stopped and asked to take a PBT, you are either going to jail for DUI or having your CPL revoked; depending on whether or not you submit or refuse. I can understand this rule if you are actually carrying, but if you have no weapon on you, I don't see how this is fair.

It's tantamount to revoking the driving privilidges of a pedestrian who refuses a PBT.

Per Section 5k, IMO, two conditions must be met:

1) The person must be licensed by this state to carry a concealed pistol, and

2) The person must be carrying a concealed pistol.

Veritas · Apr 27, 2009

imported post

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

SNIP
And as I understand the law, just by having a CPL, WHETHER YOU ARE CARRYING OR NOT, you contractually agree to waive the right to refuse the PBT/field test. So basically, if you rinse your mouth with Scope before going out and your stopped and asked to take a PBT, you are either going to jail for DUI or having your CPL revoked; depending on whether or not you submit or refuse. I can understand this rule if you are actually carrying, but if you have no weapon on you, I don't see how this is fair.

It's tantamount to revoking the driving privilidges of a pedestrian who refuses a PBT.

Click to expand...

Per Section 5k, IMO, two conditions must be met:

1) The person must be licensed by this state to carry a concealed pistol, and

2) The person must be carrying a concealed pistol.

Makes sense. However, as the law is stated, if the officer has probable cause to suspect that you are carrying, then you must submit. No?

Venator · Apr 27, 2009

imported post

Veritas wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

SNIP
And as I understand the law, just by having a CPL, WHETHER YOU ARE CARRYING OR NOT, you contractually agree to waive the right to refuse the PBT/field test. So basically, if you rinse your mouth with Scope before going out and your stopped and asked to take a PBT, you are either going to jail for DUI or having your CPL revoked; depending on whether or not you submit or refuse. I can understand this rule if you are actually carrying, but if you have no weapon on you, I don't see how this is fair.

It's tantamount to revoking the driving privilidges of a pedestrian who refuses a PBT.

Click to expand...

Per Section 5k, IMO, two conditions must be met:

1) The person must be licensed by this state to carry a concealed pistol, and

2) The person must be carrying a concealed pistol.

Click to expand...

Makes sense. However, as the law is stated, if the officer has probable cause to suspect that you are carrying, then you must submit. No?

I don't think so. If you are out of the vehicle he can pat you down to see. If the weapon is inside the vehicle he would need a warrant to check it out. Until then I would refuse a BAT.

SpringerXDacp · Apr 27, 2009

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Veritas wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

SNIP
And as I understand the law, just by having a CPL, WHETHER YOU ARE CARRYING OR NOT, you contractually agree to waive the right to refuse the PBT/field test. So basically, if you rinse your mouth with Scope before going out and your stopped and asked to take a PBT, you are either going to jail for DUI or having your CPL revoked; depending on whether or not you submit or refuse. I can understand this rule if you are actually carrying, but if you have no weapon on you, I don't see how this is fair.

It's tantamount to revoking the driving privilidges of a pedestrian who refuses a PBT.

Click to expand...

Per Section 5k, IMO, two conditions must be met:

1) The person must be licensed by this state to carry a concealed pistol, and

2) The person must be carrying a concealed pistol.

Click to expand...

Makes sense. However, as the law is stated, if the officer has probable cause to suspect that you are carrying, then you must submit. No?

From Section 5k:
(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

I think the key words here are "probable cause" (PC).

What does probable cause mean? It's factual evidence an LEO observes during an investigation (in this case a CPL holder)that may/can warrant an arrest,search and seizure.

IOW, replace "probable cause" with "factual evidence"...A peace officer who has factual evidence to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol....

Veritas · Apr 27, 2009

imported post

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

Veritas wrote:

SNIP
And as I understand the law, just by having a CPL, WHETHER YOU ARE CARRYING OR NOT, you contractually agree to waive the right to refuse the PBT/field test. So basically, if you rinse your mouth with Scope before going out and your stopped and asked to take a PBT, you are either going to jail for DUI or having your CPL revoked; depending on whether or not you submit or refuse. I can understand this rule if you are actually carrying, but if you have no weapon on you, I don't see how this is fair.

It's tantamount to revoking the driving privilidges of a pedestrian who refuses a PBT.

Click to expand...

Per Section 5k, IMO, two conditions must be met:

1) The person must be licensed by this state to carry a concealed pistol, and

2) The person must be carrying a concealed pistol.

Click to expand...

Makes sense. However, as the law is stated, if the officer has probable cause to suspect that you are carrying, then you must submit. No?

Click to expand...

From Section 5k:
(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

I think the key words here are "probable cause" (PC).

What does probable cause mean? It's factual evidence an LEO observes during an investigation (in this case a CPL holder)that may/can warrant an arrest,search and seizure.

IOW, replace "probable cause" with "factual evidence"...A peace officer who has factual evidence to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol....

Got it. So continue to refuse PBT's and field tests then, so long as I am NOT carrying. And even if I am carrying, as long as there are no traces of alcohol in my body, I could probably get away with refusing even if I am carrying... because to me, the PC has two contingencies: 1) That I've been drinking, and 2) That I'm carrying concealed. If I'm drinking and not carrying, there is no probable cause to suspect otherwise. Same goes with carrying and not drinking.

Again, and for the record, I don't drive drunk nor do I carry a sidearm when drinking. But theoretically, if I visit a friend and we decide to go drinking and I leave my pistol at his house, take cab back to his house to crash later that night, then drive home in the morning with my pistol, I might still register alcohol on a PBT. Either way, I don't prefer to consent to anything I don't have to.

Thanks for the info, guys.

SpringerXDacp · Apr 27, 2009

imported post

Veritas wrote:

SpringerXDacp wrote:

SNIP
From Section 5k:
(4) A peace officer who has probable cause to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol in violation of this section may require the individual to submit to a chemical analysis of his or her breath, blood, or urine.

I think the key words here are "probable cause" (PC).

What does probable cause mean? It's factual evidence an LEO observes during an investigation (in this case a CPL holder)that may/can warrant an arrest,search and seizure.

IOW, replace "probable cause" with "factual evidence"...A peace officer who has factual evidence to believe an individual is carrying a concealed pistol....

Click to expand...

Got it. So continue to refuse PBT's and field tests then, so long as I am NOT carrying. And even if I am carrying, as long as there are no traces of alcohol in my body, I could probably get away with refusing even if I am carrying... because to me, the PC has two contingencies: 1) That I've been drinking, and 2) That I'm carrying concealed. If I'm drinking and not carrying, there is no probable cause to suspect otherwise. Same goes with carrying and not drinking.

Again, and for the record, I don't drive drunk nor do I carry a sidearm when drinking. But theoretically, if I visit a friend and we decide to go drinking and I leave my pistol at his house, take cab back to his house to crash later that night, then drive home in the morning with my pistol, I might still register alcohol on a PBT. Either way, I don't prefer to consent to anything I don't have to.

Thanks for the info, guys.

If a CPL holder is under the influence and not carrying a concealed pistol, the CPL holder violated no firearm laws. However, this is not to say you wont be arrested for DUI if you happen to be driving at the time.

Remember, per Section 5k:
(3) This section does not prohibit an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol who has any bodily alcohol content from transporting that pistol in the locked trunk of his or her motor vehicle or another motor vehicle in which he or she is a passenger or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol or on a vessel if the pistol is transported unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol.

The term Unloaded

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