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Thread: Just Did The "Default Walk"

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    I had to default the State under F.S. 120.60, so I just issued myself my license. It feels good to be "official" after waiting 90 days.

    In honor of receiving my license, I had to do the customary rite of passage: I took the old and famous "Default Walk" around the neighborhood, and I can tell you this:

    Concealed Carry Sucks, comparatively speaking.

    This was the first time I've carried fully concealed in many years. With the gun concealed, you're at such a dramatic disadvantage in a real fight. While any gun is better than no gun, getting past the clothing to get to the gun is a disaster waiting to happen. The chances of a clean draw are also severely frustrated because of the clothing covering the gun.

    Further, the requirement to keep the gun fully covered rules out carrying the most effective guns such as milspec 1911 or a 6" revolver.

    Open carry is so vastly preferable.






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    I generally carry a Beretta 92FS in a blackhawk serpa OWB holster, covering it with an unbuttoned second shirt.
    It's always worked for me.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    This was the first time I've carried fully concealed in many years. With the gun concealed, you're at such a dramatic disadvantage in a real fight. While any gun is better than no gun, getting past the clothing to get to the gun is a disaster waiting to happen. The chances of a clean draw are also severely frustrated because of the clothing covering the gun.

    Further, the requirement to keep the gun fully covered rules out carrying the most effective guns such as milspec 1911 or a 6" revolver.
    Yep. It's a real wonder that anyone even bothers to CC.

    Hell, if all you're gonna do is CC, it's almost better to leave it at home for all the good it'll do ya...

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    It takes alot of practice, being clothing conscious, and the right holster for you get some effective match ups together even with the CC restriction. This is where one of mine typically is:





    betweena tucked shirt with a hawaiian shirt, sports jersey, polo shirt, or larger T-shirt over it.



    --Oh, the pic is not of me... You'd need tomirror the holster to the left side,add a bunch more hair, and give the guy around 50 lbs. of meatball sandwiches to eat.

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    Let us know how that "self issued" license works out if you are stoped by a LEO.



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    acrimsontide wrote:
    Let us know how that "self issued" license works out if you are stoped by a LEO.
    I was wondering about that too. What's this "self-issued" bit?

    Doesn't Florida have over 500,000 CWPs issued to its citizens? How does that stack up to other states?



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    HankT wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    Let us know how that "self issued" license works out if you are stoped by a LEO.
    I was wondering about that too. What's this "self-issued" bit?

    Doesn't Florida have over 500,000 CWPs issued to its citizens? How does that stack up to other states?

    The way I understand it is that Florida has some kind of default law that requires them to take action by a certain time or they are in default on licenses. From what I have read, the law had something to do with keeping someone from "sitting" on an application and was passed to protect developers. Some people are trying to carry this over to CCW permits since they are a "license". From what I have read, the guy will likely lose out if he is arrested. I'm not a lawyer however so I could be wrong ontthe intent.

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    acrimsontide wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    Let us know how that "self issued" license works out if you are stoped by a LEO.
    I was wondering about that too. What's this "self-issued" bit?

    Doesn't Florida have over 500,000 CWPs issued to its citizens? How does that stack up to other states?

    The way I understand it is that Florida has some kind of default law that requires them to take action by a certain time or they are in default on licenses. From what I have read, the law had something to do with keeping someone from "sitting" on an application and was passed to protect developers.
    "Developers?" Who on earth told you such nonsense?

    The current iteration of 120.60 was a strengthening of the version that existed since the 1970's, perhaps earlier. Until the late 90's, 120.60 imposed a duty to act with "reasonable dispatch," setting the default period at 180 days. Now, thankfully, the State is required to act within 90 days. Period. 120.60 covers all licenses, and is, in no way, license-specific.

    You know that keeping the government on a short leash works to our favor, right? You remember that we're the pro-gun side of things, and we don't want the State taking forever to let people have their firearm rights?

    There's only one side of this issue for gun owners to be on. Advocating administrative delay and citizen silence in the face of such delay does not lead us towards freedom. If everyone defaulted the State, we would be in a much stronger position to argue that open carry is necessary to let citizens carry arms about them while awaiting permit approval.

    Presently, we have no non-permit carrying option, and, according to some, the State can indefinitely deny the right to carry. First, the State can indefinitely fail to approve or deny the application. If the citizen files a default because of this delay, some argue that the default is of no effect, or, alternatively or conjunctively, is not effective until the State issues the actual permit. The latter disjunct is such a tortured tautological exercise that it can only truly be appreciated by a tyrant.

    As the citizens have no recourse to carry in absence of State permission, it's necessary to inundate the State with default filings to compel it to reconsider its prohibition on open carry. In states where open carry is the basic right, many who carry never trouble themselves with applying for the permit. Under such a scheme, the State would not find itself buried under a crush of applications, and those who truly wish to carry concealed would likely not face such long wait times.

    I ask you this:

    1) Do you believe that the State can, through administrative delay, fail to approve or deny a license, indefinitely?

    2) In the above, does the citizen have the right to default the State?


    3) If so, when?

    4) Is a citizen practice of defaulting the State bad for gun owners?

    5) Is it a Patriot's duty to attempt to increase the Liberty of his fellow citizens?

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    smoking357 wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    Let us know how that "self issued" license works out if you are stoped by a LEO.
    I was wondering about that too. What's this "self-issued" bit?

    Doesn't Florida have over 500,000 CWPs issued to its citizens? How does that stack up to other states?

    The way I understand it is that Florida has some kind of default law that requires them to take action by a certain time or they are in default on licenses. From what I have read, the law had something to do with keeping someone from "sitting" on an application and was passed to protect developers.
    "Developers?" Who on earth told you such nonsense?

    The current iteration of 120.60 was a strengthening of the version that existed since the 1970's, perhaps earlier. Until the late 90's, 120.60 imposed a duty to act with "reasonable dispatch," setting the default period at 180 days. Now, thankfully, the State is required to act within 90 days. Period. 120.60 covers all licenses, and is, in no way, license-specific.

    You know that keeping the government on a short leash works to our favor, right? You remember that we're the pro-gun side of things, and we don't want the State taking forever to let people have their firearm rights?

    There's only one side of this issue for gun owners to be on. Advocating administrative delay and citizen silence in the face of such delay does not lead us towards freedom. If everyone defaulted the State, we would be in a much stronger position to argue that open carry is necessary to let citizens carry arms about them while awaiting permit approval.

    Presently, we have no non-permit carrying option, and, according to some, the State can indefinitely deny the right to carry. First, the State can indefinitely fail to approve or deny the application. If the citizen files a default because of this delay, some argue that the default is of no effect, or, alternatively or conjunctively, is not effective until the State issues the actual permit. The latter disjunct is such a tortured tautological exercise that it can only truly be appreciated by a tyrant.

    As the citizens have no recourse to carry in absence of State permission, it's necessary to inundate the State with default filings to compel it to reconsider its prohibition on open carry. In states where open carry is the basic right, many who carry never trouble themselves with applying for the permit. Under such a scheme, the State would not find itself buried under a crush of applications, and those who truly wish to carry concealed would likely not face such long wait times.

    I ask you this:

    1) Do you believe that the State can, through administrative delay, fail to approve or deny a license, indefinitely?

    2) In the above, does the citizen have the right to default the State?


    3) If so, when?

    4) Is a citizen practice of defaulting the State bad for gun owners?

    5) Is it a Patriot's duty to attempt to increase the Liberty of his fellow citizens?
    Obviously you feel you are in the right on this. As for the developer issue, I read that on another forum and stated that I could be wrong on the intent of the law. Keep us posted on the multiple forums that you are posting ths information on so that we will all know the outcome. Your fellow Floridians don't seem to agree with you on ,as you are being ridiculed on their forum. I'm sure they are looking forward to the resolution of your default "self issued permit" as well.
    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=2725

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    acrimsontide wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    acrimsontide wrote:
    Let us know how that "self issued" license works out if you are stoped by a LEO.
    I was wondering about that too. What's this "self-issued" bit?

    Doesn't Florida have over 500,000 CWPs issued to its citizens? How does that stack up to other states?

    The way I understand it is that Florida has some kind of default law that requires them to take action by a certain time or they are in default on licenses. From what I have read, the law had something to do with keeping someone from "sitting" on an application and was passed to protect developers.
    "Developers?" Who on earth told you such nonsense?

    The current iteration of 120.60 was a strengthening of the version that existed since the 1970's, perhaps earlier. Until the late 90's, 120.60 imposed a duty to act with "reasonable dispatch," setting the default period at 180 days. Now, thankfully, the State is required to act within 90 days. Period. 120.60 covers all licenses, and is, in no way, license-specific.

    You know that keeping the government on a short leash works to our favor, right? You remember that we're the pro-gun side of things, and we don't want the State taking forever to let people have their firearm rights?

    There's only one side of this issue for gun owners to be on. Advocating administrative delay and citizen silence in the face of such delay does not lead us towards freedom. If everyone defaulted the State, we would be in a much stronger position to argue that open carry is necessary to let citizens carry arms about them while awaiting permit approval.

    Presently, we have no non-permit carrying option, and, according to some, the State can indefinitely deny the right to carry. First, the State can indefinitely fail to approve or deny the application. If the citizen files a default because of this delay, some argue that the default is of no effect, or, alternatively or conjunctively, is not effective until the State issues the actual permit. The latter disjunct is such a tortured tautological exercise that it can only truly be appreciated by a tyrant.

    As the citizens have no recourse to carry in absence of State permission, it's necessary to inundate the State with default filings to compel it to reconsider its prohibition on open carry. In states where open carry is the basic right, many who carry never trouble themselves with applying for the permit. Under such a scheme, the State would not find itself buried under a crush of applications, and those who truly wish to carry concealed would likely not face such long wait times.

    I ask you this:

    1) Do you believe that the State can, through administrative delay, fail to approve or deny a license, indefinitely?

    2) In the above, does the citizen have the right to default the State?


    3) If so, when?

    4) Is a citizen practice of defaulting the State bad for gun owners?

    5) Is it a Patriot's duty to attempt to increase the Liberty of his fellow citizens?
    Obviously you feel you are in the right on this. As for the developer issue, I read that on another forum and stated that I could be wrong on the intent of the law. Keep us posted on the multiple forums that you are posting ths information on so that we will all know the outcome. Your fellow Floridians don't seem to agree with you on ,as you are being ridiculed on their forum. I'm sure they are looking forward to the resolution of your default "self issued permit" as well.
    http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...ead.php?t=2725
    I only talked about this procedure on two forums. I went to that "other forum" first, since it appeared to be devoted to the substance of the discussion, and they all attacked this particular exercise of gun rights with the zeal of Sarah Brady. I then took the discussion here, even though it concerns concealed, not open, carry.

    Either the "other site" is a front group for those opposed to gun rights, or Florida gun owners are the weakest gun advocates in the Union. I have never seen gun owners be so opposed their gun rights as I have here in Florida. The "other forum" claims that one can only be banned for specific reasons, when their practice is to ban anyone who is smarter than them or is too pro-RKBA.

    Why, I was permanently banned there almost immediately upon arrival, for doing nothing but responding to and correcting some of the rudest, most ignorant, and most abusive posters I've ever encountered. They openly admit that "attitude" will draw a ban, so you'd better act dumb and be an Amen corner for the cadre of self-importants who monopolixe the place. Frankly, they were highly offended at being upstaged on their home court and for being exposed as grossly uneducated in the very subject in which they profess to be "experts." I mean, really, if you're running a Florida Concealed Carry board, shouldn't you be familiar with the details of the permit process? Promoting as gospel that the date of check cashing is, in any way, relevant to the deadline is really embarrassing when someone comes along and tells you that such a date is absolutely meaningless.

    These supposed gun advocates have presently threatened to call the police on me, and they gleefully expressed disgusting desires to see me be the subject of police brutality, have my face slammed into the gravel, just for following the law. Even though I'm banned from posting on their site, they despise that the #1 source for Florida CCW information is this board, not theirs.

    Their reaction to a pro-gun rights exercise is both bizarre and revolting. It is inconceivable for me to consider calling the cops on a fellow gun owner. In America, a powerful and brutal government that is not accountable to the public and need not answer to the public within any specific time is called "tyranny," and those who advocate for such conditions are called "Liberals," "Socialists" and "Communists."

    Strange days are upon us, my friend.

    P.S. It's extremely cowardly for them to attack someone whom they've prohibited from responding. That's really quite chickensh... They'll gladly enjoy the rights others have fought to give them, though they attacked the soldiers doing the fighting. Years ago, we'd have called them Tories.

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    Be aware that there is a misguided soul on the "other forum" who knows nothing about 120.60 profferring a crudely cobbled version of the law.

    Specifically, the misinformed fellow claims:

    "You can notify them [the agency] that they have exceeded the time frame allowed under Chapter 120 and you want the license issued as a default. If they agree then they send you the license. It doesn't look any different nor does it indicate anywhere it was issued under default."

    Sigh. So much lack of knowledge and understanding among the untutored.

    Case law and statute are explicit that there is no requirement that they "agree" to the default, as "agreement," or any discretionary act, on the part of the agency after the deadline gives the State merely another avenue to practice administrative delay and would completely revoke the statutory imperative for timely action. Cites have been posted on this board in other threads.

    I wish people would read the law prior to spouting wive's tales and complete mistruths.

    There are, however, opinions that hold that one cannot make a mockery of the by licensing statute by holding no medical training and become a physician by default, so if you're Charles Manson, your default firearms license will not be upheld. In the main, the default procedure is a hard requirement on the State, and the State loses almost all but the most fundamental rights to speak once the deadline has passed.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Even though I'm banned from posting on their site, they despise that the #1 source for Florida CCW information is this board, not theirs.
    The #1 source for Florida Firearm information is direct from Gutmacher.

    The #2 source for Florida Firearm information is Gutmacher's book.

    The #3 would be from the statutes themselves, combined with a decent online law library for definitions and case law clarifications.

    A distant #4 would be message boards, and the one you previously mentioned wouldn't even make the top 5 Florida gun boards.

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    "I spoke this afternoon with a supervisor in the compliance/enforcement section of DACS Concealed Weapons licensing. He agreed with me that even if he had a case for default that he needs to have an issued license physically on him to not be arrested."

    "He?" Could it be that persons are committing criminal conspiracy to violate the privacy laws? You know that these applications are no longer public.

    "He also agreed with me that the criminal court judge that will precide over his case will only be interested in whether he was in violation of Chapter 790.01. Chapter 790.01 says that you are in violation unless you posses a concealed weapons permit persuant to the conditions set in Chapter 790.06."

    Don't play with sharp edges, kiddo. Once arrested, the presence of a validly served default would create such a massive affirmative defense that no D.A. would want to touch the case. The card requirement presumes timely action by the State. Do you know what an affirmative defense is?

    790.06 is not a strict liability statute (do you know what that is?). It's impossible to prove wilful violation in the presence of a knowing belief that one was in compliance with the larger body of statutes and caselaw.

    "No where does it say that you may carry if DACS is in default of your application."

    Nowhere does it say that you may carry a black gun upon receipt of your license.

    "Chapter 790.06 requires that you have the license with your picture on it as issued by the Agency when ever you carry a concealed weapon along with a valid ID (Driver License) and you must present both to a LEO upon his request. There is no provision anywhere in this section for claiming to have a license to carry under default through Chapter 120."

    Son, you can't see the forest for the trees.

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    Don't know anything about Florida Law.

    I can post relative to the Poster eluding to the Florida number of licensees. The 500,000 numbered by the poster would be the second highest in the country relative to the data I am aware of. Pennsylvania has 600,000 individuals with licenses or 5.7 percent of the population. This data is a few years old with Pennsylvania continuing to grow in number of licensed carriers. Indiana was second at the time with approx. 300,000 carriers.

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    Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks to me like this would be an easy issue to solve.

    Simply take your default permit and approach the nearest LEO. If he agrees and lets you walk away then you are proven right.

    If he arrests you then perhaps the other forum is right.

    Either way I would think that a true patriot such as yourself would be willing to do more for the cause than just walk around his neighborhood.

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    HankT wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    This was the first time I've carried fully concealed in many years. With the gun concealed, you're at such a dramatic disadvantage in a real fight. While any gun is better than no gun, getting past the clothing to get to the gun is a disaster waiting to happen. The chances of a clean draw are also severely frustrated because of the clothing covering the gun.

    Further, the requirement to keep the gun fully covered rules out carrying the most effective guns such as milspec 1911 or a 6" revolver.
    Yep. It's a real wonder that anyone even bothers to CC.

    Hell, if all you're gonna do is CC, it's almost better to leave it at home for all the good it'll do ya...
    I don't agree. With practice, you can get to a handgun covered by a shirt, for example, very quickly. An open suitcoat or other jacket which is open isn't much of a problem with a good shoulder rig--or crossdraw. If you're wearing a heavy, buttoned or zippered coat, you're right. But lighter clothes and practice--and the right rig, aren't as bad as you think.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    smoking357 wrote:
    I had to default the State under F.S. 120.60, so I just issued myself my license. It feels good to be "official" after waiting 90 days.

    In honor of receiving my license, I had to do the customary rite of passage: I took the old and famous "Default Walk" around the neighborhood, and I can tell you this:

    Concealed Carry Sucks, comparatively speaking.

    This was the first time I've carried fully concealed in many years. With the gun concealed, you're at such a dramatic disadvantage in a real fight. While any gun is better than no gun, getting past the clothing to get to the gun is a disaster waiting to happen. The chances of a clean draw are also severely frustrated because of the clothing covering the gun.

    Further, the requirement to keep the gun fully covered rules out carrying the most effective guns such as milspec 1911 or a 6" revolver.

    Open carry is so vastly preferable.




    You "issued yourself" a CCW...good luck with that. Default requires legal action to enforce, such as a writ of Mandamus, not you writing on a slip of paper.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Gunslinger wrote:




    You "issued yourself" a CCW...good luck with that. Default requires legal action to enforce, such as a writ of Mandamus, not you writing on a slip of paper.
    Only if I cared about having a hall pass in my wallet. Being "legal" does not demand equitable relief.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Only if I cared about having a hall pass in my wallet. Being "legal" does not demand equitable relief.
    I am looking into the crystal ball and see your past.



    Much strife....and arguments...and ..... ill will....everyone is against you...

    Also, the future is ....cloudy...

    But wait.

    There is a building. A large gray building....with very odd curtains on the windows...

    The curtains are made of metal....no, they're not curtains at all....they're bars...

    It's getting cloudy again...

    Sorry, I can't see anything more.

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    HankT wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    Only if I cared about having a hall pass in my wallet. Being "legal" does not demand equitable relief.
    I am looking into the crystal ball and see your past.



    Much strife....and arguments...and ..... ill will....everyone is against you...

    Also, the future is ....cloudy...

    But wait.

    There is a building. A large gray building....with very odd curtains on the windows...

    The curtains are made of metal....no, they're not curtains at all....they're bars...

    It's getting cloudy again...

    Sorry, I can't see anything more.
    That's because you're picking up the soap.

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    OneInThePipe wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks to me like this would be an easy issue to solve.

    Simply take your default permit and approach the nearest LEO. If he agrees and lets you walk away then you are proven right.

    If he arrests you then perhaps the other forum is right.

    Either way I would think that a true patriot such as yourself would be willing to do more for the cause than just walk around his neighborhood.
    You answered other posts how about replying to this post?

    Are you going to keep talking trash or are you going to stand behind your beliefs and be a true patriot?

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    OneInThePipe wrote:
    OneInThePipe wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks to me like this would be an easy issue to solve.

    Simply take your default permit and approach the nearest LEO. If he agrees and lets you walk away then you are proven right.

    If he arrests you then perhaps the other forum is right.

    Either way I would think that a true patriot such as yourself would be willing to do more for the cause than just walk around his neighborhood.
    You answered other posts how about replying to this post?

    Are you going to keep talking trash or are you going to stand behind your beliefs and be a true patriot?
    He's not going to do it. We all know why.

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    JeepSeller wrote:
    OneInThePipe wrote:
    OneInThePipe wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks to me like this would be an easy issue to solve.

    Simply take your default permit and approach the nearest LEO. If he agrees and lets you walk away then you are proven right.

    If he arrests you then perhaps the other forum is right.

    Either way I would think that a true patriot such as yourself would be willing to do more for the cause than just walk around his neighborhood.
    You answered other posts how about replying to this post?

    Are you going to keep talking trash or are you going to stand behind your beliefs and be a true patriot?
    He's not going to do it. We all know why.
    I don't expect him to answer either. I wonder if he is a Brady troll.
    He does live up to his B.S. initials though.

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    JeepSeller wrote:
    OneInThePipe wrote:
    OneInThePipe wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks to me like this would be an easy issue to solve.

    Simply take your default permit and approach the nearest LEO. If he agrees and lets you walk away then you are proven right.

    If he arrests you then perhaps the other forum is right.

    Either way I would think that a true patriot such as yourself would be willing to do more for the cause than just walk around his neighborhood.
    You answered other posts how about replying to this post?

    Are you going to keep talking trash or are you going to stand behind your beliefs and be a true patriot?
    He's not going to do it. We all know why.
    Because, Bob, one's rights do not flow from the police.

    By the way, the criteria for a "shall issue" permit does not include having an "attitude" that comports to the mores of a hillbilly, so if you attempt to frustrate my civil rights, I'll sue the hell out of you.

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    It seems we have some newcomers.

    Before the newcomers are allowed to proceed, they must answer a simple question:

    Do you support open carry in Florida?

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