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Thread: What's the violation for carrying concealed w/o a CPL?

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    I'm an Oregon resident with my Oregon CHL, but have to make a trip to Washington tomorrow. I'm aware it's breaking the law, but I'm going to be carrying concealed (I'm not willing to give up my right of self-defense just because I'm going into another state.) I would OC, but I'm travelling with my wife and parents in law, who all disapprove of OC . So that leaves me breaking the law, which I'm not happy about, but as the old saying goes, It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

    I can find the Washington Statute, RCW 9.41.050, but it just says it's a "Class 1 Civil Infraction." What exactly is that? A Misdemeanor? A fine? I searched some and wasn't able to find the exact definition (maybe my Google-Fu is weak tonight, I dunno).

    Thanks for any help you can provide,

    ...Orygunner...

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    It's a $250 slap on the wrist http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=7.80.120

    The clues to all of this were in the RCW you cited, in that it referenced back to chapter 7.80.



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    Isn't the infraction for carrying concealed when you forgot and left your permit at home? The OP doesn't have a WA permit, so I don't think the infraction applies to him in any way.

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    I'll admit, I didn't look very hard, but I did go back to chapter 7.80 and it wasn't really obvious...

    Ahh-hah! Monetary penalties -- Restitution. My eyes just skimmed over that the first time...

    Thanks for the info, and the direct link!

    ...Orygunner...

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    Orygunner wrote:
    I'm an Oregon resident with my Oregon CHL, but have to make a trip to Washington tomorrow. I'm aware it's breaking the law, but I'm going to be carrying concealed (I'm not willing to give up my right of self-defense just because I'm going into another state.) I would OC, but I'm travelling with my wife and parents in law, who all disapprove of OC . So that leaves me breaking the law, which I'm not happy about, but as the old saying goes, It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

    I can find the Washington Statute, RCW 9.41.050, but it just says it's a "Class 1 Civil Infraction." What exactly is that? A Misdemeanor? A fine? I searched some and wasn't able to find the exact definition (maybe my Google-Fu is weak tonight, I dunno).

    Thanks for any help you can provide,

    ...Orygunner...

    Ory - I don't know the answer off the top of my head but I find it interesting that you would risk breaking the law (and possible incarceration, loosing your right to continue to have your Oregon permit etc...) because you take defending yourself and your family so seriously but you won't stand up to your family's "disapproval?"

    In my book law trumps family approval/disapproval if the law could stop me from being able to protect that family in the future.

    -adamsesq


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    Dude, you are looking up the wrong RCW. You have no permit, you are not under RCW 9.41.050. You fall under 9.41.250, which states:


    (1) Every person who:
    (b) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol, or other dangerous weapon; or


    is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
    That's no civil fine, that's a ride. Let me offer you some advise...don't do it.

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    Stand up for yourself to your wife and inlaws. My inlaws really didn't have much to say about it to me, but my wife was against it...thinking it was going to get me in trouble and stuff. She finally said fine and just deals with it. She's getting her CCW though so her gun will be on her too.

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    You have no permit, you are not under RCW 9.41.050. You fall under 9.41.250,
    Not only that, but according to 9.41.098(a), you lose your gun, which may be worse, depending on what you carry.

    (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be: (a) Found concealed on a person not authorized by RCW 9.41.060 or 9.41.070 to carry a concealed pistol
    I second that opinion expressed earlier by BigDaddy, with the slight change in capitalization to DON'T DO IT!




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    How about bringing OC and a knife instead?

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    Stop into a police station and apply for a non-res CPL while you're there and you won't have the problem again

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    Cougar125 wrote:
    Stand up for yourself to your wife and inlaws.
    Even if he does, the law still prevents him from carrying in the car on the way up without a CPL, so it's still worth knowing what the penalties are.

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    I appreciate all the suggestions, thanks

    I've got a few thoughts and personal philosophies here I'm working from here, and now that I know how serious it could be, I'm trying to work out my strategy.

    First, I have never needed a gun before in my life. Never been mugged or attacked.

    However, I have only been frisked twice in my life and handcuffed once, both 17-18 years ago because of mis-informed, ignorant mistakes of my youth. I do a lot less stupid stuff now, and am also much more aware of my rights and responsibilities than I ever have before.

    I think I put my chances of needing a gun or my chances of being frisked at this point in my life pretty unlikely. But you know the saying, Better to have a gun and not need it, than need it and not have it?

    I also well understand the difference between right and wrong, and it sure doesn't match up with what's legal and illegal. Disobeying an immoral or unconstitutional law that creates a totallyvictimless crime is not wrong, in my opinion.

    As far as standing up to my family, I have to deal with them every day. I rarely have anything to do with the police.

    I was hoping that reciprocity would happen between Oregon and Washington for CHLs, but looks like it's going to be awhile. Perhaps I should pickup an application while up there in Washington, but paying $55 to exercise a right just seems wrong to me...

    ...Oh well, it's my neck, either way...
    ...Orygunner...

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    grishnav wrote:
    Cougar125 wrote:
    Stand up for yourself to your wife and inlaws.
    Even if he does, the law still prevents him from carrying in the car on the way up without a CPL, so it's still worth knowing what the penalties are.
    Actually, the law prevents nothing, only provides penalties if you're caught breaking it.

    Hmm. Why do I feel like I'm slipping off the pedestal of "law-abiding gun owner." ?

    ...Orygunner...

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    Well NavyLT, I think you may have convinced me to apply for my Washington CPL while I'm there. I DO want to be a law-abidingperson... really!

    Does anyone know if I have to bring my training class certificate, or if showing my Oregon CHL will be sufficient?

    Thanks,

    Frank.

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    "As far as standing up to my family, I have to deal with them every day. I rarely have anything to do with the police."

    I think that you're missing the point, in my humble opinion. You are the head of your family; you don't have to stand up to anybody, you just have to tell them how it's going to be. If you can't make a cogent case for your beliefs, learn to do so and then incorporate them, both the beliefs and the rationale for them, into your persona. Understand that the law in both WA and OR provides you with the legal means to arm yourself. Who are your in-laws to question the right of self protection. You love them, I'm sure, but they simply must understand that their comfort does not balance well against your being arrested and tried.

    MD

    P.S. Mrs Duck says to your in-laws, "One of the purposes of the open carry movement is to engage curious people and educate them about the legality of open carry, about the morality of gun ownership and possession, about the efficacy of open carry for crime reduction, and about the character of the nice people who do open carry. Perhaps you, as a family member, can help them learn to 'get over it.'"

    .

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    Kindof off topic, but I feel I need to explain the circumstances in more detail why it's just not as simple as that.

    My parents-in-law own an Adult Foster Home, where wife is the resident manager, and her and I live with our two kids. Oregon rules for adult foster homes are very strict regarding firearms, they must be stored, locked and unloaded, separate from ammunition, also locked up. There are no allowances for carrying a firearm on your person.

    When I started getting heavily into firearms rights and becoming an Open Carry advocate last summer, I discovered that DHS rules are is in violation of Oregon State Preemption law. After I made someinquiries to the state and local DHS offices in regards to this, they contacted my parents in law and started questioning them about my intentions.

    My parents-in-law basically said: They do not want to run the risk of losing their license and their business because of my "activism," and they don't agree withOpen Carry anyway. They gave me the ultimatum: If I insist on carrying a gun everywhere, including at their business, on their property or around them, my wife will lose her job and we will be forced to move out. No further discussion allowed.

    They're not really being irrational about it, Oregon DHS is a very anti-gun department, and they are justifiably afraid for their license and their livelihood. If DHS decides to shut them down (legal or not) because of something I do, there goes a majority of their source of income.

    My wife does not agree with Open Carry either (she dislikes the extra attention we get when out in public), but she does agree I should be able to carry a gun, so I got a Kel-Tec P3AT pocket pistol, and have it in my pocket everywhere but work (that's another story).

    The trip later today is with the parents-in-law, so OC is out of the question unless I want to find us a new place to live and my wife wants to find a new job. That leaves my remaining options at going unarmed and legal, or breaking the law.

    Damn that's a difficult choice.

    ...Orygunner...



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    NavyLT wrote:
    #3 You will be paying for the privilidge to carry your gun concealed. In Washington your right to protect yourself by open carrying is protected, except in your vehicle, which I totally disagree with, so yes, I guess you would be paying to exercise your right in your vehicle, which is wrong to have to do. Also, you may apply at any LEO agency in the state as an Oregon resident, but the application, resident or not, must be done in person. Takes all of 15 to 20 minutes.
    Carrying a firearm is not a privilege. Neither is driving, petitioning your government for a redress of grievances, or starting a church; all things that (many) permits are required for.

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    Orygunner wrote:
    Actually, the law prevents nothing, only provides penalties if you're caught breaking it.
    Actually, the law is just a bunch of meaningless words on paper written by a cult in a strange groupthink ceremony that involves a bunch of crying, screaming, fighting, mutual masturbation and talk of children (though rarely are any ever present).

    It's the men and women calling themselves "government" that provide the guns and the punishment. The claim to be directed by these so-called "laws," but if you actually read these documents, you'll find they are more often than not in violation themselves. See: War on drugs, war on terror, war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan, harassment of open carriers, all firearms "laws," war on gay marriage, etc., etc...

    Hmm. Why do I feel like I'm slipping off the pedestal of "law-abiding gun owner."
    You are capable of independent thought?

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    From what I've heard about some of the Southern Washington Police/Sheriff departments you might just walk out with the permit in your hand the same day.
    WTT: Glock 27 for Glock 26

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    IANAL, and I can neither confirm nor deny what I would or would not do in this situation, but I do feel that my safety and the safety of my family comes first, no matter what. If you feel the same way, then you already know what you will be doing.

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    NavyLT wrote
    There are no training requirements. Just proof of identity is all that is required. You do a form similar to a 4473, fingerprints, pay $55, 90 days later you get it in the mail as a non-resident.
    Bothell PD got my non-res to me in under 30 days, so depending on where he applies, he might get it faster than 90.

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    I thank everyone for their help, I'll be near the Auburn PD, I'll be applying with them tomorrow (and crossing my fingers while I'm in Washington State).

    Stay safe!

    ...Orygunner...

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    Just found out that Federal Way is taking 6 days to process and mail CPL's. However it's BY APPT ONLY

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    NavyLT wrote:
    Also, you may apply at any LEO agency in the state as an Oregon resident, but the application, resident or not, must be done in person. Takes all of 15 to 20 minutes.
    I believe this to be incorrect. Non-Residents have to go to the County SO. City police can't issue to non-residents.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    "...Damn that's a difficult choice."

    Orygunner, I had no idea it was like that. I was seeing only the top of the iceberg when 90% was below the water. My only suggestions now would be long term planning ideas which I'm sure you'll cover in the appropriate time. Best of luck. Sometimes a big change is the best change.

    MD

    ETA: For the present - what Compmanio said.

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