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Milwaukee Journal Sentinal: Lawsuit challenges open carry arrests

M

McX

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So, say if a person was carrying a Bible, he would be Bible toting? Toting? Seems to impose an automatic threat, just by the wording. Very biased.
 

jrm

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The federal court issued a decision today, granting the defendants' motion for summary judgment. In the court's opinion, anyone can be arrested for disorderly conduct for wearing a gun in a store, and presumably anywhere else:

"No reasonable person would dispute that walking into a retail store openly carrying a firearm is highly disruptive conduct which is virtually certain to create a disturbance. This is so because when employees and shoppers in retail stores see a person carrying a lethal weapon, they are likely to be frightened and possibly even panicky. many employees and shoppers are likely to think that the person with the gun is either deranged or about to commit a felony or both. Further, it is almost certain that someone will call the police. And when police respond to a "man with a gun" call, they have no idea what the armed individual's intentions are. The volatility in such a situation could easily lead to someone being seriously injured or killed."

The court's opinion will be posted soon.
 

Brass Magnet

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WTF?

Which court was this and where do I look for the decision? Where does the case go from here?

If we are denied both modes of carry; one by the CCW prohibition, and the other by DC, I can't think of better grounds for a constitutional challenge.

Would this decision have been different if it would have been brought up after the Mcdonald opinion (assuming 2A is applied to states)? I mean, if this was a federal civil rights lawsuit, in federal court, is there a difference on whether you are nailed for DC for practicing your rights? Maybe I'm talking in circles......uhm.... OK, I guess the question is, does the federal court look at our stateRKBA or do they view this onlyon thefederal level?

I'm confused. If they view this as DC, can DC be challenged again as overbroad?

Ergh..... are we all going to start getting arrested for DC again? :cuss::banghead:
 

Brass Magnet

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947.01 Disorderly conduct.

Whoever, in a public or private place, engages in violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud or otherwise disorderly conduct under circumstances
in which the conduct tends to cause or provoke a disturbance is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor.
History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 131.

The defendant was properly convicted of disorderly conduct when he appeared on
a stage wearing a minimum of clothing intending to and succeeding in causing a loud
reaction in the audience. State v. Maker, 48 Wis. 2d 612, 180 N.W.2d 707 (1970).

An attorney was properly convicted under this section for refusing to leave a ward
in a mental hospital until he had seen a client after having made statements in the presence of patients that caused some to become agitated. State v. Elson, 60 Wis. 2d 54, 208 N.W.2d 363 (1973).

It was not disorderly conduct for 4 people to enter an office with other members
of the public for the purpose of protesting the draft and to refuse to leave on orders
of the police when their conduct was not otherwise disturbing. State v. Werstein, 60
Wis. 2d 668, 211 N.W.2d 437 (1973).

This statute does not require a victim, but when the disorderly conduct is directed
at a person, that person is the victim for the purpose of prosecuting the perpetrator for intimidating a victim under s. 940.44. State v. Vinje, 201 Wis. 2d 98, 548 N.W.2d 118 (Ct. App. 1996), 95−1484.

A “true threat” is a statement that a speaker would reasonably foresee that a listener would reasonably interpret as a serious expression of a purpose to inflict harm, as distinguished from hyperbole, jest, innocuous talk, expressions of political views, or other similarly protected speech. It is not necessary that the speaker have the ability to carry out the threat. State v. Perkins, 2001 WI 46, 243 Wis. 2d 141, 626 N.W.2d 762, 99−1924.

Purely written speech, even written speech that fails to cause an actual disturbance,
can constitute disorderly conduct, but the state has the burden to prove that the speech is constitutionally unprotected “abusive” conduct. “Abusive” conduct is conduct that is injurious, improper, hurtful, offensive, or reproachful. “True threats” clearly fall within the scope of this definition. State v. Douglas D. 2001 WI 47, 243 Wis. 2d 204, 626 N.W.2d 725, 99−1767.


Application of the disorderly conduct statute to speech alone is permissible under
appropriate circumstances. When speech is not an essential part of any exposition
of ideas, when it is utterly devoid of social value, and when it can cause or provoke
a disturbance, the disorderly conduct statute can be applicable. State v. A.S. 2001 WI
48, 243 Wis. 2d 173, 626 N.W.2d 712, 99−2317.

Disorderly conduct does not necessarily require disruptions that implicate the public
directly. This section encompasses conduct that tends to cause a disturbance or disruption that is personal or private in nature, as long as there exists the real possibility that the disturbance or disruption will spill over and disrupt the peace, order, or safety of the surrounding community as well. Sending repeated, unwelcome, and anonymous mailings was “otherwise disorderly conduct.” State v. Schwebke, 2002 WI 55, 253 Wis. 2d 1, 644 N.W.2d 666, 99−3204.

Defiance of a police officer’s order to move is itself disorderly conduct if the order
is lawful. Braun v. Baldwin, 346 F.3d 761 (2003).
It seems to me that the red part could be appplied to other constitutionally protected rights giving the burden to the state to prove that it's actually constitutionally unprotected behavior.

The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security,defense, hunting, recreation and for any other lawful purpose

It surly fits within "security" and "any other lawful purpose".



IDK, this is just making me mad. I'm sure it will be clearer to me when I can read the decision but even then, I'm affraid, I'll be PO'd.
 

jrm

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Brass Magnet wrote:
WTF?

Which court was this and where do I look for the decision? Where does the case go from here?

If we are denied both modes of carry; one by the CCW prohibition, and the other by DC, I can't think of better grounds for a constitutional challenge.

Would this decision have been different if it would have been brought up after the Mcdonald opinion (assuming 2A is applied to states)? I mean, if this was a federal civil rights lawsuit, in federal court, is there a difference on whether you are nailed for DC for practicing your rights? Maybe I'm talking in circles......uhm.... OK, I guess the question is, does the federal court look at our stateRKBA or do they view this onlyon thefederal level?

I'm confused. If they view this as DC, can DC be challenged again as overbroad?

Ergh..... are we all going to start getting arrested for DC again? :cuss::banghead:
When hosted, the decision will be here: http://www.georgiacarry.com/gonzalez_westmin/

If you are dying for it, I'd be glad to email it to you, or you can get it off the court's web site. U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin, Case No. 2:09-CV-284-LA. It will cost you 8 cents a page to get it that way, and you'll first have to register for the federal PACER system if you do not already have an account.
 

Shotgun

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Brass Magnet wrote:
Ergh..... are we all going to start getting arrested for DC again? :cuss::banghead:
The way I read it, the judge ruled that under the circumstances addressed the police had probable cause to arrest and seize a gun, which isn't the same as saying that a disorderly conduct charge would stand up in court. Probable cause requires a lower standard of evidence than what is required for a conviction.
 

jrm

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Brass Magnet wrote:
It seems to me that the red part could be appplied to other constitutionally protected rights giving the burden to the state to prove that it's actually constitutionally unprotected behavior.

The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security,defense, hunting, recreation and for any other lawful purpose

It surly fits within "security" and "any other lawful purpose".



IDK, this is just making me mad. I'm sure it will be clearer to me when I can read the decision but even then, I'm affraid, I'll be PO'd.
You'll still probably be unhappy after you read the decision, but the decision just discusses what constitutes probable cause to arrest for DC, in the context of a civil 4th Amendment challenge to the arrest. There is no analysis of whether someone could be convicted of DC -- only a determination that there is probable cause to arrest someone for DC for OCing in a store.
 

Brass Magnet

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jrm wrote:
When hosted, the decision will be here: http://www.georgiacarry.com/gonzalez_westmin/

If you are dying for it, I'd be glad to email it to you, or you can get it off the court's web site. U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin, Case No. 2:09-CV-284-LA. It will cost you 8 cents a page to get it that way, and you'll first have to register for the federal PACER system if you do not already have an account.

Although I'm not "dying" for it, If you could email it to me that'd be great. If it's just going to be up later today or something I wouldn't want you to have to go through the trouble just to give me my legal "fix".

PM inbound with addy.
 

Brass Magnet

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jrm wrote:
You'll still probably be unhappy after you read the decision, but the decision just discusses what constitutes probable cause to arrest for DC, in the context of a civil 4th Amendment challenge to the arrest. There is no analysis of whether someone could be convicted of DC -- only a determination that there is probable cause to arrest someone for DC for OCing in a store.

Yeah, "unhappy", that's what I meant to say.;)

This sure opens up a can of worms.

If DC can be applied broadly enough to envelope otherwise legal activity or even constitutionally protected activities it basically constitutes legal harrassment. Even if it only (only:quirky)gives probable cause to arrest andyou aren't ever convicted of DC you can be arrested for it again and again. Since the officers had probable cause they can't get sued for 4a violations as long as they arrest you for DC and not something else.

Just think of all the other activities they could arrest you for. Then, even if they didn't get you for DC, they legally searched your person and vehicle or house and went on a huge fishing expedition to get some other dirt on you in the mean time. This sounds likea big big problem and a serious errosion of civil liberties to me.





Will you/can you appeal?
 

CUOfficer

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This looks like a golden ticket for law enforcement to arrest any open carrier they see/are called about. This would allow them to seize and hold your weapon and arrest you multiple times. Looks like it is not a good day in the open carry world in WI. Hopefully there is a chance for an appeal as it sounds like this judge was clearly not pro 2A. How can they say that he wasn't denied a constitutional right. Isn't the second amendment part of the constitution?
 

jrm

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The decision is now hosted at the link listed above -- happy reading.
 

AaronS

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This is a real joke. Justice in America is dead. I now have even less faith in the laws that we all try to follow... This must be appealed.
 

jrm

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Brass Magnet wrote:

Will you/can you appeal?
A party aggrieved by an adverse decision of a district court has 30 days to file a notice of appeal to the appropriate court of appeals, in this case the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago. It is an appeal as of right (i.e., not discretionary with the appellate court to take or not to take the case).

I won't comment on future litigation activity.
 

Brass Magnet

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I believe the courts decision was plainly wrong in saying this:
And nothing in Article
I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution authorizes a person to openly carry a firearm under circumstances in which such conduct is likely to alarm others.


Nothing in the amendment authorizes me to pick my nose while having a holstered sidearm either. The friggen amendment doesn't authorize ANYTHING, it protects my rights. Some judge this was. What a fundamental misunderstanding this is.

They are reading the amendment right out of the constitution. Basically saying it doesn't exist. Although there is plenty of case law weakening the amendment it is clear that carrying a firearm for security or any other lawful purpose is protected conduct and shouldn't fall underneath disorderly conduct. Since we are barred from concealing the weapon by statute, the only way to not alarm anyone, we must carry openly.

From my quote of the DC statute above:


but the state has the burden to prove that the speech is constitutionally unprotected “abusive” conduct. “Abusive” conduct is conduct that is injurious, improper, hurtful, offensive, or reproachful. “True threats” clearly fall within the scope of this definition. State v. Douglas D. 2001 WI 47, 243 Wis. 2d 204, 626 N.W.2d 725, 99−1767.
Although this is used for speech that is constitutionally protected, carrying the firearm seems to be constitutionally protected as well. At the very least the state should have the burden of proof and not the other way around.


Also, the more I read into this; If this decision stands, it further weakens the ban on CCW making it easier to pass part 2 of the Hamdan test.
1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons stat-
ute? and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms?
State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.
Huh, sure sounds like concealing the weapon is the only reasonable means under ANY circumstances now.



What a bunch of phooey!

You're right JRM, I'm still "unhappy"



ETA: Furthermore, did the court haveany business quoting Heller? I don't think so........... Looks to me like the judge just looked for what was favorable to her POV.
 

rcawdor57

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Well, I just read the entire decision and do not understand how any intelligent person could come to that decision. How can we have to right to keep and bear arms in both the U.S. Constitution AND the Wisconsin state constitution (which is very clear) but if we do "bear" them outside of our homes we can be arrested for disorderly conduct?

If we cannot get a specific law that states we have the right to carry openly then we will continue to get arrested. I don't know about the rest of you folks but I am not staying in Wisconsin for too much longer with these radical "decisions" being made.

Is it time to join others in "Free States"? I think so.
 

AaronS

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rcawdor57 wrote:
Well, I just read the entire decision and do not understand how any intelligent person could come to that decision. How can we have to right to keep and bear arms in both the U.S. Constitution AND the Wisconsin state constitution (which is very clear) but if we do "bear" them outside of our homes we can be arrested for disorderly conduct?

If we cannot get a specific law that states we have the right to carry openly then we will continue to get arrested. I don't know about the rest of you folks but I am not staying in Wisconsin for too much longer with these radical "decisions" being made.

Is it time to join others in "Free States"? I think so.
You sum up my feelings on this very well, thanks. We can not let this nut job of a judge win this one. This has to be fought. The ramifications of this decision standing are very wide spread, and will effect the rest of the Nation. This kind of decision should be fought by all that respect the idea of the 2A. (A.1 S.25 WSC).
 
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Maybe if y'all take a step back in your logic it'll be helpful.

The court has found that there is no privilege to disturbance and that a claim of disturbance is sufficient cause for arrest. As always, the police detain and recommend charges over which the DA has discretion. Maybe our sometimes correspondent 'County Prosecutor' will comment.

I am disappointed that some will change their habits based only on this opinion's effect on risks happily taken before the opinion.

Now we need to listen to the various corporate entities - and to the plaintiff in this action.
 

rcawdor57

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What this judge did was give the police the ultimate authority to violate every right protected by the U.S. and Wisconsin constitutions. Why have a constitution if the police can override every right we have? Jesus was arrested in the parking lot, the police then have the RIGHT to search his vehicle BECAUSE he was arrested? Wow. Using that logic the police can then go to his work place and home and search to their hearts content with no warrant and no probable cause (oh...except for the fact that they arrested him for breaking no laws...oh...except disorderly conduct....right:cuss:). This is completely wrong and has to be overturned. I can see this one (hopefully) going all the way to the SCOTUS.
 
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