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Thread: Kicked out of Meijer's for OC

  1. #1
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    I went to the Saline Meijer's today, OCing an 1911 in a rather old leather holster. I returned some bottles, checked the ammo case (empty), and was looking at replacement headlights with my friend, when I saw a manager-looking-type walk down the main aisle while looking at me. Even though my weakside was toward him, I knew what was coming right then. He came down, asked how we were doing while walking past, then stopped, turned, and asked if I could cover up or leave it in the car. He then explained that it's policy to not allow OC, and that not even loss prevention could carry, mostly due to customer complaints in the past. I asked if it was store or corporate policy, and he said it was corporate. I then explained to him that I don't patronize stores that don't allow OC, and neither do many other gun owners. He didn't seem to care. I explained that I wouldn't be shopping there anymore, he kinda shrugged it off and left. As I was walking I decided to pick up a couple bottles of vodka on the way out, since I didn't feel like paying an extra $5 on campus for the same product. He did miss out on about $100 of other stuff, though.

    The manager's name was Mark Smith, and he said that loss prevention had pointed me out to him. I doubt that it's corporate policy, so I'll be calling that in when I get the chance, probably tomorrow. I've never heard of anyone getting kicked out of Meijer's, so we'll see where this goes. One of you may know more about it.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Rogue9er wrote:
    I've never heard of anyone getting kicked out of Meijer's, so we'll see where this goes. One of you may know more about it.
    Nope, I've not had any problems in the Meijer I shop at (Lake Orion)and I've shopped there several times OC'ing.

    I'm not familiar with their policies, having had no reason to research it.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    As I was walking I decided to pick up a couple bottles of vodka on the way out, since I didn't feel like paying an extra $5 on campus for the same product. He did miss out on about $100 of other stuff, though.
    Man, you shoulda bought a whole case of vodka. You could have told ole Mark Smith that heforced you to save $60!

    That would've got him.


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    Ive never had an issue at Meijer, and Im in the Jackson or Mason Meijers every other day it seems. I try and support local Michigan businesses when I can. Hopefully you get this resolved.

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    I went to the Saline Meijer's today, OCing an 1911 in a rather old leather holster. I returned some bottles, checked the ammo case (empty), and was looking at replacement headlights with my friend, when I saw a manager-looking-type walk down the main aisle while looking at me. Even though my weakside was toward him, I knew what was coming right then. He came down, asked how we were doing while walking past, then stopped, turned, and asked if I could cover up or leave it in the car. He then explained that it's policy to not allow OC, and that not even loss prevention could carry, mostly due to customer complaints in the past. I asked if it was store or corporate policy, and he said it was corporate. I then explained to him that I don't patronize stores that don't allow OC, and neither do many other gun owners. He didn't seem to care. I explained that I wouldn't be shopping there anymore, he kinda shrugged it off and left. As I was walking I decided to pick up a couple bottles of vodka on the way out, since I didn't feel like paying an extra $5 on campus for the same product. He did miss out on about $100 of other stuff, though.

    The manager's name was Mark Smith, and he said that loss prevention had pointed me out to him. I doubt that it's corporate policy, so I'll be calling that in when I get the chance, probably tomorrow. I've never heard of anyone getting kicked out of Meijer's, so we'll see where this goes. One of you may know more about it.
    Man! we must have just missed each other. I was there tonight myself. I didn't have any problems OC'ing though. I, too, noticed the very empty ammo case.

    I had a... let's just say interesting ... experience with Meijer on Carpenter Rd (Ypsi/Pittsfield) where their loss prevention accused me of stealing batteries
    (of all things) and they held me against my will and made me remove my jacket and empty pockets. Wasn't carrying then, but I got a formal apology from the manager of the store, and a $100 gift card for my trouble (and for a promise not to sue them....)

    But no problems OCing at any of the local Meijer stores so far. Maybe they're scared of me now?

    -Zzz

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    You didn't want to sue them for false imprisonment?

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    GJD wrote:
    You didn't want to sue them for false imprisonment?
    I wasn't so sure I'd win.

    Plus, I'm not a sue-happy person. I just wanted the apology (in writing), which I got.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Shoot, for a $100.00 gift card? Where is this Meijer's? I want to get accused of stealing batteries so I can get one of those too!

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    Shoot, for a $100.00 gift card? Where is this Meijer's? I want to get accused of stealing batteries so I can get one of those too!
    Count me in, too. Perhaps if we held out on the possibility of suing them, they would up the ante a little.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    GJD wrote:
    You didn't want to sue them for false imprisonment?
    I wasn't so sure I'd win.

    Plus, I'm not a sue-happy person. I just wanted the apology (in writing), which I got.
    I think I would have pushed it further, after receiving the advice of a lawyer.

    But I can see your approach too. Your approach of insisting on the apology is very good because they don't really want to do it. And that way there is a record, probably including inside someone's personnel file.

    I think you did just fine.

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    I called the corporate # on the website, got someone named Irene, and gave her the rundown. I then asked if the no OC was store or corporate policy, to see if it matched up with what Mr. Smith claimed. She didn't know what to do, and put on hold. Georgette picks up, and I later find out that she is the Ann Arbor-Saline store director, and she doesn't know what to do either, saying it had never came up. This is in conflict with what Mr. Smith said, so now I at least have him on that point.

    Hopefully she'll get back to me quickly, although I'll probably have to call back on Monday or Tuesday to check up on things.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    For some reason I recall this came up before, and supposedly Meijers follows what ever the law says. i.e., if OC is legal, then it should be legal in their stores.

    But I should point out, I'm not a lawyer, and I might be recalling policy for a different chain of stores.

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    That's what others have indicated, as well as a topic search. The main reason that I'm going after this is because the manager told me it was corporate policy and that it has happened before, while the store supervisor told me the opposite. I don't appreciate being lied to. Plus, I like to go to Meijers, and would prefer to OC.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Keep in mind, you may not have been intentionally lied to. It's possible the manager who stopped you just didn't know better.

    But it's definitely a case for "educating" them.

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    If he doesn't know, he should say so. He should not say that it's policy and has happened before. The supervisor had no problem telling me that she had never heard of any policy on the matter.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I agree, but sometimes, if in a situation where they don't know, they may invoke what THEY think is the correct response. That could be what happened here.

    Doesn't excuse what he did, but it's just a possibility.

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    Hey Rogue, do you have a brother named Dan who goes to WMU? I was disc golfing today, OCing, and some dude was like, "Hey, open carry!" We struck up a conversation and he told me about his brother who got kicked out of a Meijer in Ann Arbor for OCing just a few days ago. I remembered this thread and asked if he knew if his brother posts on this website, but he didn't know. It would be really cool if this was actually your brother that I met!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Yep, that's my bro that you ran into. Small world, lol.

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    I have to guess that you guys have aCPL to open carry in Meijer's. They are licensed by Michigan Liquor Control so those of us without a CPL can't open carry in there as I understand it.

    If I am wrong please let me know.

    Thanks,

    AlwaysLearning

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    AlwaysLearning wrote:
    I have to guess that you guys have a*CPL to open carry in Meijer's. They are licensed by Michigan Liquor Control so those of us without a CPL can't open carry in there as I understand it.

    *If I am wrong please let me know.

    ************ Thanks,

    ************ AlwaysLearning
    That's correct. Any place that sells alcohol is off limits for OC without a CPL.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Howdy, long time since i've been on here. Anyways, I shoot at a buddies property near Ohio all the time. I have open-carried at least a dozen times in the woodhaven store with-out even a weird look, while buying ammo. I have also oc'd in the Madison Heights, Royal Oak, and Rochester Hill's Meijers. I don't understand, i've never had a problem oc'n with the exception of a Detroit LEO, but thats another story.
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    eastmeyers wrote:
    Howdy, long time since i've been on here. Anyways, I shoot at a buddies property near Ohio all the time. I have open-carried at least a dozen times in the woodhaven store with-out even a weird look, while buying ammo. I have also oc'd in the Madison Heights, Royal Oak, and Rochester Hill's Meijers. I don't understand, i've never had a problem oc'n with the exception of a Detroit LEO, but thats another story.
    Welcome back. If you don't mind, post the Detroit LEO story in the stickied,List your open carry experiences here thread.

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    Hey Everyone,

    I'm brand new here... this is my first post, in fact. Let me begin by saying that I'm a HUGE civil rights fan and a believer in openly carrying. I do it quite often, in fact. Almost every time I leave the house, my pistol I wear my pistol strong side. If my shirt or coat covers it, great. If not, oh well. I don't worry about printing or whether or not my weapon shows... because I know my rights.

    This being said, I feel compelled to play the devils advocate on some of the cases I've been reading about folks being kicked out of stores for openly carrying. It's pretty simple: The premises may be open to the public, but they have the right to refuse service to anyone. If they don't want visible weapons on their premises, they can simply refuse you service and ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, then you are trespassing. It's a fundamentally similar concept to going to a party at a private residence in that the party may be open to anyone to "come as they are", but the homeowner could easily ask you to leave if they didn't want you carrying an open weapon in their house. Conceal Carry, however, is a different story. If the homeowner never knows you have a weapon, then they are none-the-wiser. Same with store owners.

    Schools and municipal properties, however, I believe are different stories. As entities funded by taxpayers, I believe they should be held to the laws of the land in ways that private property owners may not necessarily be obliged to follow. This means I support the open carrying in municipal buildings.

    But as far as private property is concerned, I believe in the civil liberties of the property owners/managers/fiduciaries/etc to exercise their own sovereign rights to choose who has access to their grounds. If they choose to discriminate based on you openly carrying; that is their right. A store owner can say "No open carry in my store" just as legally as a bigot can say "No black people in my house". It may be morally wrong, but it is within the realm of their legal right to assert such. This being said, you have rights too... you have the right to choose to shop somewhere else. You have the right to do what you're doing by campaigning to corporate. But remember, not everyone is as "aware" as many of us OC'ers are... so I'm beseeching you folks to please pick and choose your battles wisely. If someone makes a big stink and starts talking legal action about something, when they're not real clear on the law themselves, it gives those close-minded bigots fuel to continue fighting us.

    I open carry quite often. I don't draw attention to myself... I don't argue with anyone... I simply go about my business as if there were no firearm on my hip. Most people probably assume I'm plain-clothes law enforcement or something. I've had a handful of people ask me if I was a cop... my answer was simply "No" and I went about my business. A few of those handful pointed at my sidearm and asked why I was carrying it. Simply, my answer is "Because it can't do me any good sitting in my closet at home." A few have tried to engage me in debate, but I don't entertain them. The bottom line is that I know the law and I know my rights... end of story. I don't need to prove that to some idiot on the street who wants to question me. This includes cops, by the way. I have not yet been stopped by an officer; but if I ever am, my demeanor would not change. When stopped (walking, not driving), I am required to give my name, address, and date of birth... nothing more. I'm not even required to furnish ID or proof that I have a CPL (because open carrying does not require a CPL). Unless I'm being investigated for a crime, an officer has no other cause to question or detain me beyond gathering my name, date of birth, and address. Period. If they claim that they're "investigating" a call about "someone with a gun"; I would remind them that the State AG, as well as the MSP, have published very clear opinions as to the legality of openly carrying... then immediately ask for the officer to call a supervisor. Make no mistake that EVERY SINGLE OFFICER IN MICHIGAN who has been on the job longer than a few weeks KNOWS that open carry is legal. It has been published in police newsletters to compel them not to harrass citizens who OC. Why? Because if a citizen has the guts to openly carry, then they know their rights and likewise have the guts to assert them. This means lawsuits and bad publicity for municpalities.

    I read on another thread somewhere (I can't find it now) where several people bantered back and forth about needing to have a CPL in order to open carry in a Meijer. This is untrue. You NEVER need a CPL to open carry anywhere. However, if you're going to open carry, it really behooves you to have a CPL because of all the little techncal crap the police can smack you with. For instance, if you don't have a CPL, but you are exercising your CONSTITUTIONAL right to openly carry... you can be charged with felony concealment if the wind blows your shirt and causes it to slightly conceal your weapon. Or the second you enter a vehicle, you go from "open carry" to "conceal carry" and without a CPL, you've just committed a felony. But to simply open carry in a store does NOT require a CPL.

    I can go on for hours about this subject... believe me. I honestly enjoy helping people better understand their rights and how lmisinterpreting laws can adversely afffect them. So please... take nothing that I've said as insulting towards anyone here. I don't know how much you folks do or don't know... I haven't scrubbed all the threads. I just managed to stumble on this site while researching information about another state for a friend and ran across a couple conversations that appeared to be propogating common misunerstandings about open/conceal carry laws.

    Glad this site exists though... it's good to have a forum to promote awareness. :-)

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Veritas wrote:
    Hey Everyone,


    I read on another thread somewhere (I can't find it now) where several people bantered back and forth about needing to have a CPL in order to open carry in a Meijer. This is untrue. You NEVER need a CPL to open carry anywhere. However, if you're going to open carry, it really behooves you to have a CPL because of all the little techncal crap the police can smack you with. For instance, if you don't have a CPL, but you are exercising your CONSTITUTIONAL right to openly carry... you can be charged with felony concealment if the wind blows your shirt and causes it to slightly conceal your weapon. Or the second you enter a vehicle, you go from "open carry" to "conceal carry" and without a CPL, you've just committed a felony. But to simply open carry in a store does NOT require a CPL.
    You need a CPL to open carry in any Meijer's store that sells alcohol. You need to read 750.234d. This applies only to possession of a firearm, WITHOUT a CPL. In other words, if you are openly carrying a firearm. The first part lists places you cannot legally carry a firearm. The 2nd part list exceptions, one in particular of which I have put in bold type.

    In general, you can open carry in most stores, provided they do not fall under line (h).

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both. History: Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991;—Am. 1992, Act 218, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992;—Am. 1994, Act 158, Eff. Aug. 15, 1994.
    Big Gay Al
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  25. #25
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    Veritas wrote:
    Hey Everyone,

    I'm brand new here... this is my first post, in fact. Let me begin by saying that I'm a HUGE civil rights fan and a believer in openly carrying. I do it quite often, in fact. Almost every time I leave the house, my pistol I wear my pistol strong side. If my shirt or coat covers it, great. If not, oh well. I don't worry about printing or whether or not my weapon shows... because I know my rights.

    This being said, I feel compelled to play the devils advocate on some of the cases I've been reading about folks being kicked out of stores for openly carrying. It's pretty simple: The premises may be open to the public, but they have the right to refuse service to anyone (NOT TRUE SOME ARE PROTECTED BY LAW, like race religion, etc.). If they don't want visible weapons on their premises, they can simply refuse you service and ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, then you are trespassing. It's a fundamentally similar concept to going to a party at a private residence in that the party may be open to anyone to "come as they are", but the homeowner could easily ask you to leave if they didn't want you carrying an open weapon in their house. Conceal Carry, however, is a different story. If the homeowner never knows you have a weapon, then they are none-the-wiser. Same with store owners.

    Schools and municipal properties, however, I believe are different stories. As entities funded by taxpayers, I believe they should be held to the laws of the land in ways that private property owners may not necessarily be obliged to follow. This means I support the open carrying in municipal buildings (WHICH IS ALLOWED BY THE 1990 PREEMPTION LAW.).

    But as far as private property is concerned, I believe in the civil liberties of the property owners/managers/fiduciaries/etc to exercise their own sovereign rights to choose who has access to their grounds. If they choose to discriminate based on you openly carrying; that is their right. A store owner can say "No open carry in my store" just as legally as a bigot can say "No black people in my house". It may be morally wrong, but it is within the realm of their legal right to assert such. This being said, you have rights too... you have the right to choose to shop somewhere else. You have the right to do what you're doing by campaigning to corporate. But remember, not everyone is as "aware" as many of us OC'ers are... so I'm beseeching you folks to please pick and choose your battles wisely. If someone makes a big stink and starts talking legal action about something, when they're not real clear on the law themselves, it gives those close-minded bigots fuel to continue fighting us.

    I open carry quite often. I don't draw attention to myself... I don't argue with anyone... I simply go about my business as if there were no firearm on my hip. Most people probably assume I'm plain-clothes law enforcement or something. I've had a handful of people ask me if I was a cop... my answer was simply "No" and I went about my business. A few of those handful pointed at my sidearm and asked why I was carrying it. Simply, my answer is "Because it can't do me any good sitting in my closet at home." A few have tried to engage me in debate, but I don't entertain them. The bottom line is that I know the law and I know my rights... end of story. I don't need to prove that to some idiot on the street who wants to question me. This includes cops, by the way. I have not yet been stopped by an officer; but if I ever am, my demeanor would not change. When stopped (walking, not driving), I am required (NOT IN MICHIGAN, you don't have to answer any questions or show ID.) to give my name, address, and date of birth... nothing more. I'm not even required to furnish ID or proof that I have a CPL (because open carrying does not require a CPL). Unless I'm being investigated for a crime, an officer has no other cause to question or detain me beyond gathering my name, date of birth, and address. Period. If they claim that they're "investigating" a call about "someone with a gun"; I would remind them that the State AG, as well as the MSP, have published very clear opinions as to the legality of openly carrying... then immediately ask for the officer to call a supervisor. Make no mistake that EVERY SINGLE OFFICER IN MICHIGAN (This is definitely not true. Many LEO's done know it's legal or think it is brandishing, I mean even CPL instructors say that.)who has been on the job longer than a few weeks KNOWS that open carry is legal. It has been published in police newsletters to compel them not to harrass citizens who OC. Why? Because if a citizen has the guts to openly carry, then they know their rights and likewise have the guts to assert them. This means lawsuits and bad publicity for municpalities.

    I read on another thread somewhere (I can't find it now) where several people bantered back and forth about needing to have a CPL in order to open carry in a Meijer. This is untrue. (THIS IS TRUE, STATE LAW LISTS PLACES YOU CAN NOT POSSESS A FIREARM and any place that has a liquor license is on that list.) You NEVER need a CPL to open carry anywhere (Again not true.). However, if you're going to open carry, it really behooves you to have a CPL because of all the little techncal crap the police can smack you with. For instance, if you don't have a CPL, but you are exercising your CONSTITUTIONAL right to openly carry... you can be charged with felony concealment if the wind blows your shirt and causes it to slightly conceal your weapon. Or the second you enter a vehicle, you go from "open carry" to "conceal carry" and without a CPL, you've just committed a felony. But to simply open carry in a store does NOT require a CPL.

    I can go on for hours about this subject... believe me. I honestly enjoy helping people better understand their rights and how lmisinterpreting laws can adversely afffect them. So please... take nothing that I've said as insulting towards anyone here. I don't know how much you folks do or don't know... I haven't scrubbed all the threads (Ah that explains a lot. Do spend some time on the info thread and see what we advise, I think we cover most of the base very well.). I just managed to stumble on this site while researching information about another state for a friend and ran across a couple conversations that appeared to be propogating common misunerstandings about open/conceal carry laws.

    Glad this site exists though... it's good to have a forum to promote awareness. :-)

    My comments in red


    Welcome, read some more on the information we give, you might even learn a bit yourself

    Cheers,

    Brian Jeffs, President
    MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY Inc.


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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