Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32

Thread: Schuemann Barrels Suggests Never Cleaning your Bore

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    http://schuemann.com/LinkClick.aspx?...bid=67&mid=445

    Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which are as hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel. Any scratching of the bore surface will naturally lead to increased bore surface wear, leading, and coppering. My recommendation would be to never use any kind of a bore brush to clean a 416 stainless steel pistol barrel, especially if it has been exposed to strings of rapid fire.
    My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...


    So what do you all think? What are your practices?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    324

    Post imported post

    marshaul wrote:
    http://schuemann.com/LinkClick.aspx?...bid=67&mid=445

    Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which are as hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel. Any scratching of the bore surface will naturally lead to increased bore surface wear, leading, and coppering. My recommendation would be to never use any kind of a bore brush to clean a 416 stainless steel pistol barrel, especially if it has been exposed to strings of rapid fire.
    My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...


    So what do you all think? What are your practices?
    I have serious doubts that a bronze brush will a barrel enough to affect the accuracy, if scratch it at all.:?

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,715

    Post imported post

    Since when is bronze harder than the surface of forged stainless steel?

    Who says you even need to use a brush? Can the guy at least run some No.9 and a patch through it?



    Personally, I always start with a patch soaked in cleaner and run it through a few times. If there's obviously stuff stuck on then I'll use the brush, but this is almost never necessary (execptin the shotgun which shoots bare lead slugs)because I clean my guns after every use of at least 50 rounds.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    It is possible, through repeated brushings, to scratch up the barrel significantly enough to affect accuracy. Not easily noticed in a pistol barrel though; this pertains more to rifles. If you have a firearm intricately designed for extreme tightness and accuracy, you'd probably want to go easy on the brushing as opposed to something like a Glock.

    You don't want to clean it too often, only when necessary. After going to the range and firing off a couple hundred rounds would be a good example. As above, this will vary depending on the firearm; some will be more tolerant of dirt and abuse than others.

    The advantage of a brush as I see it is in effect something like a broom - sweeps out the dirt before you run through with a cleaning patch.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    AWDstylez wrote:
    Since when is bronze harder than the surface of forged stainless steel
    Well I posted this thread precisely because the guy makes some rather surprising claims.

    But the thing is, the guy who wrote that article has probably forgotten more about pistol barrels than most of us will ever learn.

    Schuemann are quality barrels.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    , , Tajikistan
    Posts
    201

    Post imported post

    The potential to scratch a metallic surface is always there. The article seems to focus more on using certain cleaning chemicals, or worse, mixing these chemicals to clean with. I find this interesting as I see this recommendation on various forums from time to time. People seem compelled to want to try various chemicals to clean their firearms rather than trusting the companies that make cleaning products to know what they're talking about. This article indicates that mixing cleaning chemicals is clearly a bad practice. I have cleaned my firearms the same way for 30 years and they seemed to hold up well, I see no need to change.

  7. #7
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849

    Post imported post

    Years ago when I first entered the gun culture, I asked someone who was helping me along the path about cleaning my revolver. I was concerned that brushing the bore with my brass brushes would cause damage. His response made all the sense in the world. He said, "Stop and think about it. You fire bullets down the barrel don't you? What do you think is more apt to damage a barrel.. a brass brush or a bullet"".


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    324

    Post imported post

    AWDstylez wrote:
    Since when is bronze harder than the surface of forged stainless steel?

    Who says you even need to use a brush?¬* Can the guy at least run some No.9 and a patch through it?

    ¬*

    Personally, I always start with a patch soaked in cleaner and run it through a few times.¬* If there's obviously stuff stuck on then I'll use the brush, but this is almost never necessary (execpt¬*in the shotgun which shoots bare lead slugs)¬*because I clean my guns after every use of at least 50 rounds.
    same here...or ill use a cotton mop if i need to do a little light scrubbing.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,715

    Post imported post

    SouthernBoy wrote:
    He said, "Stop and think about it. You fire bullets down the barrel don't you? What do you think is more apt to damage a barrel.. a brass brush or a bullet"".

    LAWL Good point. Not to mention nearly all bullets are copper or brass jacketed. ZOMG METAL ON METAL IT'S GONNA SCRATCH IT!!!11!!!



    Like marshaul said though, it's hard to argue against the guy... but it just doesn't make sense to me. Aren't material surface hardnesses rated on their relative ability to scratch another material? I could be wrong, that's not my area, but that's what I've seen. I just can't see bronze scratching hardened steel, anymore than I can see plastic scratching glass.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,715

    Post imported post

    redlegagent wrote:
    I find this interesting as I see this recommendation on various forums from time to time. People seem compelled to want to try various chemicals to clean their firearms rather than trusting the companies that make cleaning products to know what they're talking about.

    Then you really missed out when everyone on HK forums hopped on the "mobil1 is great gun oil" bandwagon.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    Well, I just put a brand new barrel in my favorite 1911. It's not a Schuemann, but since it's the same steel that Schuemann uses (416), I think I may just give this barrel the no-brush treatment (mops and swabs only).

    We'll see how it goes. I'll update this thread in a few months. :P

    Edit: Good deal on Storm Lake drop-in barrels rights now from EGW, btw.

    http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?...roducts_id=210

    In my Rock Island Armory Tactical, the barrel itself really was drop-in (it passes field timing tests), and the bushing required only minor filing of the front face of the lug. The properly sized link and pin are included also.

  12. #12
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    1,896

    Post imported post

    AWDstylez wrote:
    LAWL Good point. Not to mention nearly all bullets are copper or brass jacketed. ZOMG METAL ON METAL IT'S GONNA SCRATCH IT!!!11!!!
    Sorry, this doesn't sound right to me. A brass jacketed bullet would destroy your barrel in about 10 rounds. The "cop killer" bullets are made of brass and have a teflon jacket/coating for this very reason. Can anyone show me a link to bullets that have a brass jacket?

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    Most bullets are indeed copper plated lead, which I suspect is a good deal softer than brass bristles. Don't forget the plating on a bullet is very even and smooth, and furthermore the bullet will deform to the shape of the barrel, whereas the bristles are specifically intended to resist deformation by the barrel and are anything but smooth.

    For what that's worth.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,715

    Post imported post

    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    LAWL Good point. Not to mention nearly all bullets are copper or brass jacketed. ZOMG METAL ON METAL IT'S GONNA SCRATCH IT!!!11!!!
    Sorry, this doesn't sound right to me. A brass jacketed bullet would destroy your barrel in about 10 rounds. The "cop killer" bullets are made of brass and have a teflon jacket/coating for this very reason. Can anyone show me a link to bullets that have a brass jacket?

    http://www.athenahq.com/News/Haag%20...%20Indiana.htm

    Sellier & Bellot makes brass jacketed 9mm that I shoot all the time.

    They are indeed very hard. I've recovered some that have deflected off rocks and were still perfectly intact and only slightly deformed.


  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    492

    Post imported post

    this kind of silly hokum only proves that anybody can say anything that they want and someone will believe him.



    Brass is NOT as hard as mild steel and to say so casts serious doubts about the validity of anything else that from the same source. Furthermore, if your gun barrel is made of "mild steel" you have bigger problems than Hoppes #9.



    Do your own research and try to scratch a groove in a piece of mild steel with your brass or copper brush bristle. Gogue out a piece of stainless steel from one of your knife blades using only a brass brush bristle.



    Please be so kind as to post pictures of the results. Thanks, and have a nice day.

  16. #16
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    1,896

    Post imported post

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_coated_bullet
    Unlike lead, which is relatively malleable, brass wore out barrels far more quickly than normal jacketed rounds, since the brass did not reform to fit the rifling. For this reason, the bullets were then coated with a layer of Teflon to reduce barrel wear.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    492

    Post imported post

    yes, their bullets are indeed quite hard. Also, Barnes makes solid copper bullets They haven't destroyed any barrels.

  18. #18
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    This discussion goes nowhere when you don't know the alloy of the brass.

    But for what it's worth, and on an outdated scale, copper is a 3 while hardened steel is a 7-8

    That's on the Mohs scale.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    , Nevada, USA
    Posts
    716

    Post imported post

    I like the brushes with nylon bristles. I don't think that they've come up with hardened nylon yet.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487

    Post imported post

    Gordie wrote:
    I like the brushes with nylon bristles.¬* I don't think that they've come up with hardened nylon yet.
    I've used these before, and while I'll keep some around in the event my bore gets exceptionally fouled, I haven't really been impressed with their performance in the past.

    I'm keen to see how clean my bore stays with no brushing at all. Never tried it before...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Free, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    3,855

    Post imported post

    marshaul wrote:
    http://schuemann.com/LinkClick.aspx?...67&mid=445

    Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which are as hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel. Any scratching of the bore surface will naturally lead to increased bore surface wear, leading, and coppering. My recommendation would be to never use any kind of a bore brush to clean a 416 stainless steel pistol barrel, especially if it has been exposed to strings of rapid fire.
    My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...


    So what do you all think? What are your practices?
    He's nuts. Bores get leaded up or have copper deposits on them after a while. The lead tends to fill in the rifling and the bullet can keyhole. I wonder if he doesn't change the oil in his car, either. And brass bristles can scratch stainless steel??!! If he's so (wrongly) concerned, use a nylon brush. Or does nylon scratch 63 Rockwell steel, too...
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  22. #22
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849

    Post imported post

    marshaul wrote:
    Gordie wrote:
    I like the brushes with nylon bristles. I don't think that they've come up with hardened nylon yet.
    I've used these before, and while I'll keep some around in the event my bore gets exceptionally fouled, I haven't really been impressed with their performance in the past.

    I'm keen to see how clean my bore stays with no brushing at all. Never tried it before...
    At the suggestion of a neighbor a few years ago, I tried a little experiment. I bought and used some (hard?) nylon bore brushes for two handgun calibers and used them for about a year. Then I went back to using some new brass brushes.

    The amount of crud that the brass brushes removed was surprising. I still frequently begin my cleaning jobs with the nylon, but after a few passes, I finish up with the brass.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Springfield45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Central Pennsylvania
    Posts
    299

    Post imported post

    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    LAWL Good point. Not to mention nearly all bullets are copper or brass jacketed. ZOMG METAL ON METAL IT'S GONNA SCRATCH IT!!!11!!!
    Sorry, this doesn't sound right to me. A brass jacketed bullet would destroy your barrel in about 10 rounds. The "cop killer" bullets are made of brass and have a teflon jacket/coating for this very reason. Can anyone show me a link to bullets that have a brass jacket?
    Sure can Brass Jacketed bullets are quite common IMO.

    The popular Golden Sabre's are Brass Jacketed .....

    ~~Springfield
    ETA

  24. #24
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    1,896

    Post imported post

    Springfield45 wrote:
    The popular Golden Sabre's are Brass Jacketed ....
    Interesting, good point. I wonder if they use a softer brass alloy?

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    236

    Post imported post

    The barrel on my Hi-Power is over 47 years old. It's got more scratches and grooving than anything I own. Since I don't bench rest when I go to the range I'll never know if it's throwing my accuracy off by 1/4". This might be valid for an Olympic shooter but for a defensive carry pistol, I'm sure it makes no difference whatsoever.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •