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Thread: OC'ing at Springfield Mall DMV

  1. #1
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    Virginia has a standard set of boilerplate clauses that are required to be in every contract, and one of those clauses is that any clause in the contract that would otherwise require the Commonwealth to violate any statelaw, ordinance or regulation is null and void. (I know I should be citing sources to back up my assertions, but after being retired from state employment where I executed contracts for, among other things,the lease of real estate, I no longer have access to the state computer system(s) where the policy manuals regardingthese matters are easily accessed. I suppose one could submit a FOIA request for a hard copy but I don;t want to spend the $$ just to prove a point. Anybody can go to the Dept. of General Services and ask to see the purchasing manual.) They all are dealt with in the state purchasing system if anybody wants to follow up and look at the manual. Additionally, the Commonwealth is prohibitted from executing contracts that violate state law, ordinance or regulation, so any lease that contained such a provision would become completely null and void with the option of the landlord continuing to rent out the property without the non-permitted clause/policy or terminating the lease per the boilerplate provisions.
    OK, so we don't have hard evidence YET, but based upon what Skid wrote, I can not see how Springfield Mall could stop me from entering the mall while OC for the express purpose of doing bussiness at the DMV.

    The DMV has a lease with Simon Properties, and they most likely have this clause in the lease. I think I have some phone calls to make.

    Ok, Virginia Gen Services is tracking down the lease and will email me a copy (for free!) once they find it.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I love the tenacity of the members here. Keepus updated. I can't wait to go in the Springfield Mall (don't live there, but drive by there all the time.) to get a copy of the drivers manual sporting Mr. Sig Sauer.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    I could see them having to allow you to do your business at and only at the DMV and then leaving and going no where else.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    This brings up a good point? What about a PUBLIC meeting or Twon Hall meeting when Kaine has a meeting, in the evening at a K-12 school. You can't OC to that. Maybe they will say you can't OC to that DMV...
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  5. #5
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    I have the lease, but I can't access it till I get home. Work blocks personal email sites.

  6. #6
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    This brings up a good point? What about a PUBLIC meeting or Twon Hall meeting when Kaine has a meeting, in the evening at a K-12 school. You can't OC to that. Maybe they will say you can't OC to that DMV...
    I don't see how the two are comparable. One isa bona fide gun free zoneas defined by state code. The other isleased spaceon private property.


  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    I have the lease, but I can't access it till I get home. Work blocks personal email sites.
    Here it is: http://flyboyed.com/ocdo/DMV154-L0142.pdf

    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Danke Ed!!!


  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Wooley wrote:
    ed wrote:
    ....What about a PUBLIC meeting or Twon Hall meeting....

    Twon Hall? Doesn't he run with Snoop,Eminem,and Dre? Or are his roots east coast?
    I can spell.. i just cant type!
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    I hate to rain on the parade; but I think even a favorable lease finding is going to be only a partial solution.

    One, you have to walk through the mall or an anchor store (Target) to get to the DMV, and

    Two, that DMV frequently has long lines snaking out into the common area. Meaning, you would have to stand in the mall for some period before you even got into the DMV. That, or time your visit so you didn't have to stand in the mall in a line, which still assumes youthe mall doesn't mind youwalking from the mall entrance or through Target to the DMV.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Interesting connumdrum.

    I'd have to argue that a state agency cannot wrap itself in a private property lease that denies our right.

    Did I mention that I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, but IANAL?

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    Glock27Bill wrote:
    I'd have to argue that a state agency cannot wrap itself in a private property lease that denies our right.
    Whereas the state might argue it is not denying our right due to the fact that the property is privately owned, and is only leased by the state. From the point of view of the state, they can only enforce preemption on public property.

    For example, they would be unable to ban OC/CC at the DMV in Sterling, which is a stand-alone building on public property, but could disallow OC/CC at Springfield DMV, if that is the will of the private property owner.

    One key to solving this might be to find an analogous 1st or 4th Amendment setup, where the state can't ban Assembly or Privacy against Searches on land they lease, but do not own. That would be a strong precedent, but may not be possible until a court rules in favor of 2nd Amendment incorporation.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    For example, they would be unable to ban OC/CC at the DMV in Sterling, which is a stand-alone building on public property, but could disallow OC/CC at Springfield DMV, if that is the will of the private property owner.
    This is the way I think it will play out.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    OC there recently to the DMV.

    Some smart-ass asked me why I felt the need to carry there.

    I pointed out theknife attacks, robberies,and kidnapping that have taken place at that mall.

    Shejust shut up.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
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    "It is not conceivable that a city can provide the ways and means for a private individual or corporation to discriminate against its own citizens...The Judgment of this court is not rendered without the full realization of the impact of this decision on the State Park system in Virginia. The future course rests in the hands of the elected and appointed representatives of the Commonwealth. This opinion follows the law as set forth in all decided cases touching on the subject matter, and it is rather significant that no legal authority has been cited by the defendants to justify any other conclusion. The contention that a normal lessor-lessee relationship should be permitted in leases of public property must give way to the constitutional rights of the citizens as a whole.
    A decree will be entered in the form of a declaratory judgment stating the Plaintiff's rights to use and enjoy the facilities at Seashore State Park have been violated under the Constitution of the United States, and a permanent federal injunction will be granted..." Tate v. Department of Conservation and Development, 133 F. Supp. 53 (E.D. 1955).

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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    "<snipped> The contention that a normal lessor-lessee relationship should be permitted in leases of public property must give way to the constitutional rights of the citizens as a whole.
    A decree will be entered in the form of a declaratory judgment stating the Plaintiff's rights to use and enjoy the facilities at Seashore State Park have been violated under the Constitution of the United States, and a permanent federal injunction will be granted..." Tate v. Department of Conservation and Development, 133 F. Supp. 53 (E.D. 1955).
    Unfortunately, Tate refers to leasing of public property to private parties. The Springfield DMV is the reverse, a lease of private property to a public (govt) party. Public property is (in theory) required to observe the constitutional rights of citizens. Private property owners are usually not.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    possumboy wrote:
    OC there recently to the DMV.

    Some smart-ass asked me why I felt the need to carry there.

    I pointed out theknife attacks, robberies,and kidnapping that have taken place at that mall.

    Shejust shut up.
    Wasn't there also a shooting? It was in the garage area IIRC. This was after the DC sniper.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Wasn't there also a shooting? It was in the garage area IIRC. This was after the DC sniper.
    There was a shooting in Dec of '07, http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/477253.html

    It turned out to be gang-related: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042503366.html

    A woman was also kidnapped from there and later died in a crash while the kidnappers fled police: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091400009.html

    There was also a stabbing: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...tabbingupd.htm

    It's no wonder they want to raze it and rebuild: http://www.springfieldtowncenter.com/

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    There was a stabbing less than 30min after I left there with a friend. Never been back since.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    Wasn't there also a shooting? It was in the garage area IIRC. This was after the DC sniper.
    There was a shooting in Dec of '07, http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/477253.html

    It turned out to be gang-related: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042503366.html

    A woman was also kidnapped from there and later died in a crash while the kidnappers fled police: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091400009.html

    There was also a stabbing: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...tabbingupd.htm

    It's no wonder they want to raze it and rebuild: http://www.springfieldtowncenter.com/
    When I was in HS we probably spent half of our weekend nights there "Malling". Never a problem, this was '75 -'77.

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    Thundar wrote:
    I can't wait to go in the Springfield Mall ....SNIP
    Yes you can. It's quite the dump. I wish they'd figure out what they're going to do with it and get on with it. Renovate or whatever.

    Thinking about this business of denying your RKABA, look at it the other way:

    Private property owners have the right to ask you to leave if they don't want you to carry, so how can the state deny them that right by forcing them to let you carry there?

    Is it the DMV's business to interefere with how the property owners run their business beyond the DMV's ownlease agreement?

    This isn't as cut and dried as it first appears.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    RedKnightt wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    Wasn't there also a shooting? It was in the garage area IIRC. This was after the DC sniper.
    There was a shooting in Dec of '07, http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/477253.html

    It turned out to be gang-related: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042503366.html

    A woman was also kidnapped from there and later died in a crash while the kidnappers fled police: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091400009.html

    There was also a stabbing: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...tabbingupd.htm

    It's no wonder they want to raze it and rebuild: http://www.springfieldtowncenter.com/
    When I was in HS we probably spent half of our weekend nights there "Malling". Never a problem, this was '75 -'77.
    Not that it's anything recent, but I've seen a lot more 'thug' types around that area after they built the metro station there. I can only imagine it will bring more bad news to the area they want to extend the metro to in loudoun.

  23. #23
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Interestingly, I was at SM today and asked to speak to a mall manager about this topic. A radio and phone call was made summoning the manager but no manager appeared so after 15 minutes so I gave up and left.

    Then went to the DMV office but it was swamped so I didn't go in and inquire there.

    I was not carrying. Lots of closed stores. Lots of store closing clearance sales. Looked like they were getting ready for the renovation. I hope they do something good with that place, what a shame.

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    nova wrote:
    Not that it's anything recent, but I've seen a lot more 'thug' types around that area after they built the metro station there. I can only imagine it will bring more bad news to the area they want to extend the metro to in loudoun.
    What's the Metro station got to do with "thugs" at the mall? What's the connection?

  25. #25
    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
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    RedKnightt wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    "<snipped> The contention that a normal lessor-lessee relationship should be permitted in leases of public property must give way to the constitutional rights of the citizens as a whole.
    A decree will be entered in the form of a declaratory judgment stating the Plaintiff's rights to use and enjoy the facilities at Seashore State Park have been violated under the Constitution of the United States, and a permanent federal injunction will be granted..." Tate v. Department of Conservation and Development, 133 F. Supp. 53 (E.D. 1955).
    Unfortunately, Tate refers to leasing of public property to private parties. The Springfield DMV is the reverse, a lease of private property to a public (govt) party. Public property is (in theory) required to observe the constitutional rights of citizens. Private property owners are usually not.
    I think if you read the case you would have a different opinion. The DC&R purposely tried to get around Brown v. Board of Education and other Supreme court cases that denied African Americans the same right to use the same facilities. The DC&R willfully decided to farm out state parks to private entities and let them not allow blacks into state parks so they get the same result. It's legal because the state didn't do the discriminating, so they thought. The court saw right through that attempt. If the State wanted to do the same thing today, could they lease out the DMV in a private business knowing full well the private business wouldn't let certain people in, in violation of the law of the land? I think not.

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