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Thread: 4th of july tea party

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    The tax day tea parties were a success but we need to really keep the ball going. Is there anyone out there planning on going to a 4th of July tea party? reteaparty.com or teapartypatriots.com.



    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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    Going!

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    I'll actualy be in state for the next one but dont know where it is gonna be.

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    I still can't get down with the notion of these tea parties. Government was just as bad before Obama got in office. It's too opportunistic to keep silent when a republican is in office, but as soon as a dem gets in to freak out. I love the idea, but distrust some of the logic behind all of this. The bailout mentality was started by Bush &Co, and I don't think there is much difference between the two dominant parties, save a few talking points. Either one will gut the constitution when given half a chance. The only question is which rights will they go after first? Warrantless wiretapping and the Patriot Act are as quick a way to destroy this country as Obama's brand of socialism.

    Where were the tea parties then? Or is it just a glaring and strange coincidence that a large group of people who were silent for the last few years has just NOW gotten fed up? Was the left taking power the straw that broke the camel's back, or just an excuse for the right wing talking heads to push an idea for ratings?

    The tea parties are a great idea. It's the whole timing of the thing I don't trust.



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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Where were the tea parties then? Or is it just a glaring and strange coincidence that a large group of people who were silent for the last few years has just NOW gotten fed up? Was the left taking power the straw that broke the camel's back, or just an excuse for the right wing talking heads to push an idea for ratings?
    I think the Campaign for Liberty was a major driving force between the popularity of this year's TEA Parties; and as I'm sure you are aware, CFL didn't exist until Ron Paul's campaign was dissolved into it, ie., after collection day '08.

    [/quote]
    That said, I'm suspicious of the timing too. And it doesn't help that the one in Seattle was essentially a republican group-masturbation event. I only heard one person with the cojones to mention that Bush 43, during his term, grew the government more than Obama has so far. There was a lot of talk about "restoring" marriage, but no talk about getting government OUT of marriage. There was some mention that the war on drugs was an abysmal failure, which was encouraging, but it was coupled with a strong anti-immigration sentiment, which definately took the punch out of it. Lots of anti-abortion sentiment, too; but lots of pro-firearm sentiment, which was nice.

    One thing I will mention: There were a lot of people there who seemed hungry for true liberty but didn't really know where to find it, and were receptive to the small government message even while being somewhat disgusted by the corropsonding anti-freedom sentiments. I think there is an opportunity for more freedom-minded individuals to get to these people with the message of libertarianism, individualism, and/or market-anarchism, and it would be great to see someone who is a decent spokesman take up the cause. That person, unfrotunately, is not me. Though I'll still do what I can, I'm a terrible spokesperson.

    I do have some ideas for some anonymous-style pro-freedom stealth activism that I'm working on putting together for whenever the next TEA Party is. Should be good times.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I still can't get down with the notion of these tea parties. Government was just as bad before Obama got in office.


    I agree that Bush was a disgrace, but NO WHERE CLOSE TO JUST AS BAD:






    -adamsesq

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    adamsesq wrote:

    I agree that Bush was a disgrace, but NO WHERE CLOSE TO JUST AS BAD:




    There are lots of measures of how bad a government is, and while budget deficits are certainly a good one, it is far from the only one and definitely not the most important to some people.

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    Bush wasn't so hot I agree,and the new stimulus was the straw that broke the camels back. These type of grass roots rallies have been building steam slowly over the last ten years and now their starting to get a mass influence of people regardless of party affiliation. People are pissed about so many things going on in this country from the job market to the stimulus to political correctness and so on that their finally coming together as Americans and putting their foot down. You cant write off hundreds of thousands of angry Americans as nothing important.

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    Sea_Chicken wrote:
    You cant write off hundreds of thousands of angry Americans as nothing important.
    Don't get me wrong here as I agree with what you said with the exception of the quoted part.

    You can and they will write off hundreds of thousands or people as nothing important. The amount of people that protested on tax day across the country was around 1 tenth of 1 percent of the population of the US. In the grand number of things the movement is extremely small and will be ignored until we have millions of people protesting.

    Yes I did go protest.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I never considered my self democrat or Republican... although I tend to lean toward conservatism. Studying libertarian ideas I would say that is the party that lends itself more to my beliefs. We are individuals, and yes I am fed up with the government Bush and the Republicans were horrible and these dems in office are worse and use Bush as an excuse. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

    I loved the Teaparty because it showed people are starting to stand up. I plan on going to the next one. We have to start sometime somewhere and maybe it took a radical leftist in office to finally motivate people.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    What is the difference between libertarian andthe stereotypical left wingliberal? I know there's a big difference from reading on this forum but I seem to be out of the loop. I don't pick party affiliationeither and retain more conservative beliefs on most issues.

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    joeroket wrote:
    The amount of people that protested on tax day across the country was around 1 tenth of 1 percent of the population of the US.
    Where did you get this figure? By my calculations it may have been as high as 2 to 3 million people in all. If you look around on the internet all you see are the big cities listed. Keep in mind that there were protests which involved a few hundred people or less in thousands of small towns around the country. I was in Bellingham with two to three thousand, not reported outside of the local paper, Anacortes, Oak Harbor, Mt Verson, not reported, etc.

    By the way, just to be a nitpicking teacher type, it isn't an "amount of people" but a "number of people". Amount deals with things that are measured as a whole rather than counted.

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    Sea_Chicken wrote:
    What is the difference between libertarian andthe stereotypical left wingliberal? I know there's a big difference from reading on this forum but I seem to be out of the loop. I don't pick party affiliationeither and retain more conservative beliefs on most issues
    What is the differnce between a stereotypical conservative and a Neanderthal? There now that insulting comments are out from both parties...

    Google is your friend... start with these two pages and draw your own conclusions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian
    http://www.lp.org/

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I still can't get down with the notion of these tea parties. Government was just as bad before Obama got in office. It's too opportunistic to keep silent when a republican is in office, but as soon as a dem gets in to freak out. I love the idea, but distrust some of the logic behind all of this. The bailout mentality was started by Bush &Co, and I don't think there is much difference between the two dominant parties, save a few talking points. Either one will gut the constitution when given half a chance. The only question is which rights will they go after first? Warrantless wiretapping and the Patriot Act are as quick a way to destroy this country as Obama's brand of socialism.

    Where were the tea parties then? Or is it just a glaring and strange coincidence that a large group of people who were silent for the last few years has just NOW gotten fed up? Was the left taking power the straw that broke the camel's back, or just an excuse for the right wing talking heads to push an idea for ratings?

    The tea parties are a great idea. It's the whole timing of the thing I don't trust.

    I would disagree that government was just as bad a few months ago. I and many conservatives wholeheartedly disagreed with Bush on the bailouts. However since Bush was about to leave office we saw no reason to take to the streets to get Bush to change his policies. Some of us also thought that the initial bailout, no matter how badly it stunk, might be the end of the madness, rather than the beginning.

    As far as the Patriot Act goes, do you actually know anyone that lost one single liberty due to the PA? Seems to me that this is a liberal straw man, set up to attack the Administration. Warrantless wiretaps? Only for people calling or receiving calls from terrorists overseas. Been going on for decades and no one had a problem with it until the Bush Admin. It was done under Clinton, GHWB, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon... It is also still going on under Obama because when they are making political hay out of it, most politicians agree that it is necessary to be able to listen to terrorists when they are planning to attack us.

    Meanwhile, Bush foolishly agreed to spend $700 billion on bailouts. Only $250 of that was spent before he left office if I remember my figures correctly. Since then they have spent the rest of that, Obama spent another trillion on the so-called stimulus plan, mostly on spending that most economists agree won't stimulate the economy. He then proposed a 33% increase in the budget, include a half billion dollars to socialize medicine. If you don't think that is an invasion of your freedom, check out the rationing and substandard health care that goes on most places that have socialized medicine. Again, most analysts understand that a half trillion is just a downpayment on what it will cost Americans to have a government run health care system.

    I was personally unhappy with many of the things that George W Bush did as President, including overspending and failing to abide by conservative principles. However to claim that what President Obama is doing is somehow no worse is mind boggling. What the current administration is doing is already worse than the Bush Admin and it is only three months old. Obama has stated that he would like to reinstate the assault weapons ban, with more guns, but the political climate isn't right. Obama is on track to increase the national debt by more in his first three years than Bush did in eight. Doesn't make Bush's spending OK, but that might be why we are protesting.

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    heresolong wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    The amount of people that protested on tax day across the country was around 1 tenth of 1 percent of the population of the US.
    Where did you get this figure?* By my calculations it may have been as high as 2 to 3 million people in all.* If you look around on the internet all you see are the big cities listed.* Keep in mind that there were protests which involved a few hundred people or less in thousands of small towns around the country.* I was in Bellingham with two to three thousand, not reported outside of the local paper, Anacortes, Oak Harbor, Mt Verson, not reported, etc.

    By the way, just to be a nitpicking teacher type, it isn't an "amount of people" but a "number of people".* Amount deals with things that are measured as a whole rather than counted.
    Ok by your calculations then it was around 1%. Still not enough to make a freaking bit of difference to the gov't.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:


    Ok by your calculations then it was around 1%. Still not enough to make a freaking bit of difference to the gov't.



    But its a start and a lot more than many protests that recieve tons of media coverage. Plus this isn't a Democratic or Republican thing. Many of my left leaning freinds supported the tea party. This is about big government getting bigger. Why I liked Ron Paul. We need to stop feeding the beast.

    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    joeroket wrote:


    Ok by your calculations then it was around 1%. Still not enough to make a freaking bit of difference to the gov't.

    *

    But its a start and a lot more than many protests that recieve tons of media coverage. Plus this isn't a Democratic or Republican thing. Many of my left leaning freinds supported the tea party. This is about big government getting bigger. Why I liked Ron Paul. We need to stop feeding the beast.
    It is a start but we need to get a whole lot more people to join in before the gov't will pay any attention to us. Hell the main stream media simply called us right wing extremists and did not go out of their way to cover the events.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Sea_Chicken wrote:
    What is the difference between libertarian andthe stereotypical left wingliberal? I know there's a big difference from reading on this forum but I seem to be out of the loop. I don't pick party affiliationeither and retain more conservative beliefs on most issues.
    Well, first of all, before you read any of this, go take the quiz and see where you stand:

    The Quiz

    So now that you've taken the quiz (you have, right?)

    Roughly speaking...

    A conservative or republican believes that individuals should have a great deal of freedom economically (ie., strong opposition to taxes and spending), but should have little control over social issues (ie., banning certain, common types of sex, banning abortion, banning gay marriage, banning drugs, enforcing morals through censorship of things like pornography, etc).

    Roughly speaking...

    A liberal or democrat believes that individual should have a great deal of freedom regarding social issues (ie., chose who they marry and how they use their body), but advocate for strong economic control (high taxes, wealth redistribution, government programs for most things, etc.)

    Liberals and conservatives have in common that they use the force of the state to coerce people into complying with their goals, whether they like to or not. Remember, the guns are what make politics more than just a game which you could simply opt-out of. If you choose not to live the way the government tells you to, they will hurt or kill you. See: Ruby Ridge, Waco, all the activism in New Hampshire, and countless other examples.

    Roughly speaking...

    Libertarians believe that so long as whatever you're doing isn't hurting anyone else, you're capable of making your own choices. Libertarian's are "pro-choice on everything," be it drug use, gun ownership, marriage, pornography, abortion, economics... Libertarians are guided by what is called the "non-agreesion" principle, or the "zero-aggression" principal, which states that you shall not defraud others and that force shall only be used in self defense; you shall never initiate force against others. Libertarians are strong on property rights and generally anti-state. Libertarians range from big-L or "party" or "minarchist" libertarians, which believe in a government who's maximum function is to protect property and rights, and provide services to help individuals peacefully resolve disputes (essentially, government shall be limited to police, courts, and national defense), to small-l or "pricipled" or "anarcho-" libertarians, which advocate for the complete abolision of the state. Services such as police protection and courts (usually called "arbitrators") would be provided as needed by the free market. Anarcho-libertarians realize the government is nothing but institutionalized force/violence (after all, if the government didn't use force or violence to get their way, they'd essentially just be a busines, free to compete with other business and fail like other businesses), and thus take the zero-agression principal to it's logical conclusion, and thus oppose any state or government on moral grounds. Anarcho-libertarians share a lot in common with anarcho-capalists or free-market anarchists.

    The Comparison of Philosphies should give you a pretty good idea about how libertarians different from conservatives and liberals (and about how much the same conservaties and liberals are). In our mind, conservatives and liberals are advocating for two different types of big government (big economic controllers vs. big social controllers), while libertarians are advocating for small government.

    The wiki series on Libertarianism is packed full of good information. Also check out the wiki series on Anarchism to see where some of the roots come from, and the wiki on Austrian economics.

    If you're still interested in LIbertarianism (you should be!), be sure to check out:

    http://www.freetalklive.com/ -- Internationally syndicated libertarian talk show, with hosts ranging from minarchists to anarchists
    http://www.mises.org/ -- Austrian school economics.
    http://www.reason.com/ -- Reason magazine
    http://ncc-1776.org/ -- The Libertarian Enterprise (TLE)
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/ -- Free minds and free markets
    http://www.cato.org/ -- The Cato Institute -- Libertarian/free-market think tank.
    http://www.theadvocates.org/ -- The Advocates for Self-Government
    http://www.bureaucrash.com/ -- Libertarian blogging, news, and social networking.
    http://www.freestateproject.org/ -- Project to try to free a state
    http://www.freekeene.com/ -- Project to try to free a city

    And uh, this post is about open carry and therefore topical because, uh, erm, hrm.. Uh... Oh! Libertarians are pro-firearms ownership and for unrestricted carrying, whether open or concealed. Yeah, that's the ticket...

    /Libertarian, in case you haven't figured it out already...
    //Oh, and then there's this related philosophy called objectivism...
    ///And let's not forget about the "left" libertarian phiolosphies, like libertarian socialism and geolibertariasm...
    ////Does your head hurt too?

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    Thanks for the info guys. It kinda got confusing for a while because you see the people that call them selves liberals that chain themselves to trees, protest for peta and global warming and all that stuff, but then I come one here and talke to pople who say they are libertarian and seem to have a completley different view point thats seems more conservative. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

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