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Thread: Are you nuts?

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Here in Virginia, there are two ways you can be declared legally insane for the purpose of a NGBRI plea. First, if you did not know what you were doing, as for example a guy carves up his boss but does it because he thought he as carving a turkey (a Thanksgiing turkey; I know a lot of us have idiot bosses but "turkey" in the street sense won't fly and I know, more's the pity)

    The other definition of legal insanity is the inability to distinguish right from wrong. I just heard a song from the turbulent late 60s that had the lyric:

    "I'm not talking 'bout 'Party ideology'; I'm talking 'bout RIGHT AND WRONG! Do you know the difference?"

    A few years ago I posed the question to a bunch of people I knew: (A) do you know the difference between right and wrong? (YES) (B) Okay. Then define it.

    Since you have to be sane to own a firearm in this country, I hope everybody here can answer Part A. But canyou answer Part B (in 25 words or less)?

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    Here in Virginia, there are two ways you can be declared legally insane for the purpose of a NGBRI plea. First, if you did not know what you were doing, as for example a guy carves up his boss but does it because he thought he as carving a turkey (a Thanksgiing turkey; I know a lot of us have idiot bosses but "turkey" in the street sense won't fly and I know, more's the pity)

    The other definition of legal insanity is the inability to distinguish right from wrong. I just heard a song from the turbulent late 60s that had the lyric:

    "I'm not talking 'bout 'Party ideology'; I'm talking 'bout RIGHT AND WRONG! Do you know the difference?"

    A few years ago I posed the question to a bunch of people I knew: (A) do you know the difference between right and wrong? (YES) (B) Okay. Then define it.

    Since you have to be sane to own a firearm in this country, I hope everybody here can answer Part A. But canyou answer Part B (in 25 words or less)?
    I think a lot of us can define it better than the statists and tyrants who would apply it to us.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    SNIP Afew years ago I posed the question to a bunch of people I knew: (A) do you know the difference between right and wrong? (YES) (B) Okay. Then define it.

    Since you have to be sane to own a firearm in this country, I hope everybody here can answer Part A. But canyou answer Part B (in 25 words or less)?
    Right: Those actions which result innet improved circumstances or conditions without unnecessary destruction.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I as a gun owner I may some day be asked such a question in a legal situation .

    My answer will be " This is my attorney's phone number . "

    __________________________________________________ __________________

    For this forum my answer beyond the slime gene pool reflex is ...

    " That's what it takes to be a hero , a little gem of innocence inside you that makes you want to believe that there still exists a right and wrong , that decency will somehow triumph in the end . "

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    I often use Ann Romney's blueberry pancakes to help describe my thoughts on the 2nd amendment and my right to keep and bear arms . This topic of right and wrong reminded me of a virtuous woman raising five boys swimming in a filthy socialocean that produced the Son of Sam . The Son of Sam believed only in the slime pool type evolutionary no god ethics where right and wrong have no meaning at all .

    RELENTLESS LOGICis now needed to safe guard our RKBA from all levels of attack .

    My attoney's name is George .

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    R a Z o R wrote:
    OT
    Overtime?

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    Who isn't nuts?? lol I know the difference between right and wrong. But my right from wrong is probobly different than many others! I mean should Iplead criminal insanity if I get cought underage drinking? The social norm is that underage drinking is bad. But then again I-D-G-A-F what the social norm is!



    Ben

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Since I started this, allow me to provide the best answer to part "B" that I have ever recieved. I asked this question of a waitress in a redneck dive in Arlington ten years ago. Her response was: "I know the difference"; and when I asked her to elasborate she repeated:"I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE". And the look in her eyes said: "and so do you".

    And indeed I do, but to express and/or quantify it is a daunting task. I feel it fortunate that my religous beliefs constrin me only in therealm of my personl behaviour and not, say, how much greenhouse ga I give off farting after a vegetarian meal.

    And if anyone cares to know how I would define the difference between right and wrong (in 25 words or less) here it is:

    :THE WRONG SHALL FAIL. THE RIGHT SHALL PREVAIL."

    That is really all there is to it.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    :THE WRONG SHALL FAIL. THE RIGHT SHALL PREVAIL."
    Sounds good to me. On more than one level.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Alexcabbie wrote:
    SNIP Afew years ago I posed the question to a bunch of people I knew: (A) do you know the difference between right and wrong? (YES) (B) Okay. Then define it.

    Since you have to be sane to own a firearm in this country, I hope everybody here can answer Part A. But canyou answer Part B (in 25 words or less)?
    Right: Those actions which result innet improved circumstances or conditions without unnecessary destruction.
    Oh boy... all the fun that can be had with this one...



    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/
    Another problem for utilitarianism is that it seems to overlook justice and rights. One common illustration is called Transplant. Imagine that each of five patients in a hospital will die without an organ transplant. The patient in Room 1 needs a heart, the patient in Room 2 needs a liver, the patient in Room 3 needs a kidney, and so on. The person in Room 6 is in the hospital for routine tests. Luckily (for them, not for him!), his tissue is compatible with the other five patients, and a specialist is available to transplant his organs into the other five. This operation would save their lives, while killing the "donor". There is no other way to save any of the other five patients (Foot 1966, Thomson 1976; compare related cases in Carritt 1947 and McCloskey 1965).

    We need to add that the organ recipients will emerge healthy, the source of the organs will remain secret, the doctor won't be caught or punished for cutting up the "donor", and the doctor knows all of this to a high degree of probability (despite the fact that many others will help in the operation). Still, with the right details filled in, it looks as if cutting up the "donor" will maximize utility, since five lives have more utility than one life. If so, then classical utilitarianism implies that it would not be morally wrong for the doctor to perform the transplant and even that it would be morally wrong for the doctor not to perform the transplant. Most people find this result abominable. They take this example to show how bad it can be when utilitarians overlook individual rights, such as the unwilling donor's right to life.



    Alex is overlooking the point of the law. The point is not about WHAT your definition of right and wrong is, but rather, WHETHER you're able to logically distinguish them. Essentially, the law is trying to separate psychotic people from normal people. Both A and B demonstrate whether someone is in-touch with reality or not, and that is their only purpose. What someone actually defines as right and wrong is irrelevant, that's for the law to decide.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Alexcabbie wrote:
    SNIP Afew years ago I posed the question to a bunch of people I knew: (A) do you know the difference between right and wrong? (YES) (B) Okay. Then define it.

    Since you have to be sane to own a firearm in this country, I hope everybody here can answer Part A. But canyou answer Part B (in 25 words or less)?
    Right: Those actions which result innet improved circumstances or conditions without unnecessary destruction.
    Oh boy... all the fun that can be had with this one...

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/
    Another problem for utilitarianism is that it seems to overlook justice and rights. One common illustration is called Transplant. Imagine that each of five patients in a hospital will die without an organ transplant. The patient in Room 1 needs a heart, the patient in Room 2 needs a liver, the patient in Room 3 needs a kidney, and so on. The person in Room 6 is in the hospital for routine tests. Luckily (for them, not for him!), his tissue is compatible with the other five patients, and a specialist is available to transplant his organs into the other five. This operation would save their lives, while killing the "donor". There is no other way to save any of the other five patients (Foot 1966, Thomson 1976; compare related cases in Carritt 1947 and McCloskey 1965).

    We need to add that the organ recipients will emerge healthy, the source of the organs will remain secret, the doctor won't be caught or punished for cutting up the "donor", and the doctor knows all of this to a high degree of probability (despite the fact that many others will help in the operation). Still, with the right details filled in, it looks as if cutting up the "donor" will maximize utility, since five lives have more utility than one life. If so, then classical utilitarianism implies that it would not be morally wrong for the doctor to perform the transplant and even that it would be morally wrong for the doctor not to perform the transplant. Most people find this result abominable. They take this example to show how bad it can be when utilitarians overlook individual rights, such as the unwilling donor's right to life.
    Not sure what you mean. Could you be explicit, please.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    The question is NOT about any specific situation hypothetical or even real. The question is: DEFINE (IF YOU ARE ABLE IN 25 WORDS OR LESS) THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. Wheyher or not to sacrifice one life of unknown secular merit to preserve the lives of others whose lives are of likewise unknown secular merit is something we could all write about until there was no more room on the Internet for pornography, at which point everyone would be wanting to know who I am and where I live so they could kill me for spoling the buzz.

    Address the question please in 25 words or less, just kike you were sending in boxtops for a cereal essay contest ti win a cowboy hat.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    The question is NOT about any specific situation hypothetical or even real. The question is: DEFINE (IF YOU ARE ABLE IN 25 WORDS OR LESS) THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG. Wheyher or not to sacrifice one life of unknown secular merit to preserve the lives of others whose lives are of likewise unknown secular merit is something we could all write about until there was no more room on the Internet for pornography, at which point everyone would be wanting to know who I am and where I live so they could kill me for spoling the buzz.

    Address the question please in 25 words or less, just kike you were sending in boxtops for a cereal essay contest ti win a cowboy hat.
    I think he was more criticizing mine than avoiding yours.

    I any event, now that I see yours, too,I think I get his drift.

    The problem lies not with the answer I gave, but with the ability of the reader to postulate benefits and harms. This would be true not only for the exampleStylez gave, but very broadly, too.

    There is no reason justice and rights cannot be considered when examining to determine whether a net benefit or even the greatest good.

    The example he cited is rather short-sighted as applied here because it assumes no one will consider whether it is a net improved circumstance if the rights of the donor are violated. The trouble arises not from the example, but from the people who postulated the example or the person who postulated its application here. Its an entirely legitimate concern--that some people will fail to consider the bigger picture. But it is easily solved by pointing out to the decider that he needs to look more broadly.

    It doesn't take a whizz-brain to figure out that the example of the involuntary organ donor would be a net deterioration and not a benefit.

    Philosphers have beendoing little else besidestrying to broaden the scope ofconsideration for the rest of usto use in our decision-making for the last 50K years.

    The whole question of net benefit or greatest good is limited only by the ability of the person tothink upand/or estimate potential benefits and harms.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Right or wrong cannot be defined as a general statute but only either as a personal one or societial one according to the society being applied. We each have our personal fellings about it but those cannot be applied to our neighbor therefore any definition is invalid for anyone other than the one quoting the definition.

    Ther is an extremely good article on msnbc.com today about psychopaths. I do not necessarily agree with all of their thoughts but it is thought provoking and somewhat chilling in their findings. For instance they estimate that as many as 1% of the population are unable to feel remorse orguilt for causing anyone pain or injury. In other words they have no conscience. They focus on the Columbine killers but my question is if they had no conscience why did they kill themselves afterwards? Very good reading whether you agree with any of it or not. You may thinks it is all BS and that is OK but does bring up some interesting thoughts.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30267075/

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    The best definition of a sociopath I ever heard is that a sociopath sees everything you see the ame as you see it. except that the sociopath sees his name on all of it. LAPD Det. Joseph Wambaugh once said the pop tune that really disgusted him was Sammy Davis's "I Did It My Way". He said that it was the "Socioppath's Nationaal Anthem". I really cannot argue otherwise.....

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    Citizen wrote:
    Not sure what you mean. Could you be explicit, please.
    Your definition is too vague, but basically boils down to a utilitarian outlook on morals. I posted one of the problem cases with that belief set, which happens to be something I know you'd have a problem with. So, in short, don't paint with such a broad brush.

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    Citizen wrote:
    It doesn't take a whizz-brain to figure out that the example of the involuntary organ donor would be a net deterioration and not a benefit.

    Can you explain?

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Alex is overlooking the point of the law. The point is not about WHAT your definition of right and wrong is, but rather, WHETHER you're able to logically distinguish them. Essentially, the law is trying to separate psychotic people from normal people. Both A and B demonstrate whether someone is in-touch with reality or not, and that is their only purpose. What someone actually defines as right and wrong is irrelevant, that's for the law to decide.
    In a simplistic manner right or wrong can be defined as what the law says and that would be the determination in court. Can a person understand what the law is and obey it. The hospital case is a good one as in our society we cannot sacrifice one person under these circumstances even to benefit five others. However is some societies it may be a pefectly accepted practice especially if it was a male/female decision. For instaqnce five males to benefit from the sacrifice of one female.We could look at it like this in our society:

    A sane person would know thatit is illegal to sacrifice the healthy person for the benefit of the others even they felt that it would be the right thing to do.

    The insane person would not only feel that it is right to sacrifice the healthy person to benefit the others but would in fact try to do the transplant themselves whether or not they were able to do it.

    The sociopath would consider each person and make the decision based on whether or not one of the persons involved was a friend/loved one of theirs. If they did not personally benefit from it they would not care.

    The phychopath would say let the sick people die and while we are at it let's just put the healthy one out of his misery also and see what it is like to kill someone.

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    PT111 wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    Alex is overlooking the point of the law. The point is not about WHAT your definition of right and wrong is, but rather, WHETHER you're able to logically distinguish them. Essentially, the law is trying to separate psychotic people from normal people. Both A and B demonstrate whether someone is in-touch with reality or not, and that is their only purpose. What someone actually defines as right and wrong is irrelevant, that's for the law to decide.
    In a simplistic manner right or wrong can be defined as what the law says and that would be the determination in court. Can a person understand what the law is and obey it. The hospital case is a good one as in our society we cannot sacrifice one person under these circumstances even to benefit five others. However is some societies it may be a pefectly accepted practice especially if it was a male/female decision. For instaqnce five males to benefit from the sacrifice of one female.We could look at it like this in our society:

    A sane person would know thatit is illegal to sacrifice the healthy person for the benefit of the others even they felt that it would be the right thing to do.

    The insane person would not only feel that it is right to sacrifice the healthy person to benefit the others but would in fact try to do the transplant themselves whether or not they were able to do it.

    The sociopath would consider each person and make the decision based on whether or not one of the persons involved was a friend/loved one of theirs. If they did not personally benefit from it they would not care.

    The phychopath would say let the sick people die and while we are at it let's just put the healthy one out of his misery also and see what it is like to kill someone.


    Exactly, because it goes right back to the intended purpose of those questions, rather than how they are being presented now.



    AWDstylez:
    The point is not about WHAT your definition of right and wrong is, but rather, WHETHER you're able to logically distinguish them.

    As for the OP, no one is going to be able to define universal right and wrong in 25 words. Philosophy has been around as long as mankind himself and no one has come to a solid conclusion yet, much less narrowed it to a 25 word discription.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Not sure what you mean. Could you be explicit, please.
    Your definition is too vague, but basically boils down to a utilitarian outlook on morals. I posted one of the problem cases with that belief set, which happens to be something I know you'd have a problem with. So, in short, don't paint with such a broad brush.

    Let me address both of your successive posts in one.

    I disagree that it boils down to a utilitarian outlook. Utilitarian outlook can only be asserted by one who refuses to look beyond the bare utility.It is not the proposed principle that comes up short, it is the ability of the individual applying it that defines its scope.

    Just for illustration,if one has no concept of property rights, say a petty thief, he will come up with the answer that it is a net benefit to steal. Whereas someone like St. George Tucker will come up with the answer that not only is it not OK to steal, but property rights deserve extensive protections at law, not just against petty thievery, but against excessive tariffs andtaxes, etc. right on down to laws of inheritance.

    As to theharm regarding the organ donor andrights, it takesvery little additional thought to realize thehugePandora'sbox involved in legitimizing such a practice. Just off the top of my head, once it became known as a practice, very few people would seek medical care. What a way to shorten the average life span, eh?

    Nevermind the huge potential problems of regarding people as "spare parts". Dehumanizing. We already knowthe tremendous disrespect for people when they are viewed as "different", a few steps further down the slope we have apseudo-science saying people are basically animals. Where has that gotten us? Electro-shocking brains, life-times on psycho-pharmacologic drugs, etc.

    I'llstop here.

    Just because it looks like utilitarianism does not mean it is. The principle is not so much vague as it is very broad. As it would have to be if it were to be useful for application to the myriad situations possible in life.

    Just thinkit over. I think that after some examination you will agree that it is not the principlethat would have a shortcoming, but theability of the individual trying toapply it--his ability to think up possible benefits and harms for any given scenario, and his ability to correctly estimate their likelihood.

    Or, perhaps better yet, make up a few scenarios of your own and see how applyingthe principle plays out.Don't take my word for it.Give it a try on a few hypothetical situations.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    As to theharm regarding the organ donor andrights, it takesvery little additional thought to realize thehugePandora'sbox involved in legitimizing such a practice. Just off the top of my head, once it became known as a practice, very few people would seek medical care. What a way to shorten the average life span, eh?

    Nevermind the huge potential problems of regarding people as "spare parts". Dehumanizing. We already knowthe tremendous disrespect for people when they are viewed as "different", a few steps further down the slope we have apseudo-science saying people are basically animals. Where has that gotten us? Electro-shocking brains, life-times on psycho-pharmacologic drugs, etc.
    Although I agree totally with you I am afraid that in some parts of the world this may be a totally acceptable practice. In China with their one child per family laws it is not uncommon for girl babies to be killed at birth in order to be allowed to try again for a boy. It is not uncommon at all for children to be sold into slavery in many areas for small amounts in order to feed the rest of the family. Yes a great pandora's box may be opened but unfortunately it was crackedcenturies ago. Think of what a slave owner may have been tempted to do here in the US if the possibility of an organ transplant from a slave had existed back in the slavery days.

    Is this much different than the castration of eunics in order to guard harems or to keep the voices of chior boys from changing much different? Things that are unthinkable to us are common practice in some societies so to make that definition of right and wrong is very difficult indeed.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    My dry claener justcalled and said my strait-jacket should be available at about 2:00 pm tomorrow......

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    PT111 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    As to theharm regarding the organ donor andrights, it takesvery little additional thought to realize thehugePandora'sbox involved in legitimizing such a practice. Just off the top of my head, once it became known as a practice, very few people would seek medical care. What a way to shorten the average life span, eh?

    Nevermind the huge potential problems of regarding people as "spare parts". Dehumanizing. We already knowthe tremendous disrespect for people when they are viewed as "different", a few steps further down the slope we have apseudo-science saying people are basically animals. Where has that gotten us? Electro-shocking brains, life-times on psycho-pharmacologic drugs, etc.
    Although I agree totally with you I am afraid that in some parts of the world this may be a totally acceptable practice. In China with their one child per family laws it is not uncommon for girl babies to be killed at birth in order to be allowed to try again for a boy. It is not uncommon at all for children to be sold into slavery in many areas for small amounts in order to feed the rest of the family. Yes a great pandora's box may be opened but unfortunately it was crackedcenturies ago. Think of what a slave owner may have been tempted to do here in the US if the possibility of an organ transplant from a slave had existed back in the slavery days.

    Is this much different than the castration of eunics in order to guard harems or to keep the voices of chior boys from changing much different? Things that are unthinkable to us are common practice in some societies so to make that definition of right and wrong is very difficult indeed.
    I understand. The definition I proposed still applies.

    The problems you mention, and numerous others are why we revere philosophers, certain authors, and so forth.

    Theytry to show us, among other things,how to broaden the scope of what we take into account when we consider benefits and harms. Takethe writings of abolitionists in 1848. Mark Twain pointed out something about the end of slavery. He wrote that it not only freed the slaves; it freed the whites, too. A very powerful point, that.

    The cultural acceptance of say, humansacrifice, does not render the principle more or lessuseful or workable. Theproblem is not enough people see past the already-decided benefits to see if they really are benefits, to see if it is a net harm, to see if greater benefits are achieveable. The problem becomes how to get the culture to look and see the greater benefit inletting live the human sacrifices.

    The realunderlying problem in this discussion is that right and wrong are absolutes. Yet absolutes are frequently unachievable.We know there is almost no such thing as an absolute. We know that life and the universe in which we live is a matter of degrees.

    All we can really say with any genuine accuracy is thatan action orinactionis more right or less right, more wrong or less wrong,thananother action.

    Take for example the human sacrifice culture. Maybe you could convince them that it is a net benefit to turn the sacificial people into slaves. "Mmmmm. Now we can make money off of them. And get more free labor." That would be more right to them, after they were convinced, yet not right enoughin the context that they were equals as human beings.

    I've got stuff I gotta do for tomorrow. Think it over. Make some examples for yourself and see if the principle I proposed has a very broad workability.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
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    18,766

    Post imported post

    Alexcabbie wrote:
    My dry claener justcalled and said my strait-jacket should be available at about 2:00 pm tomorrow......
    Oooooo. They dry-clean yours? Not mine. The only cleaning mine gets is when they give me the ice-water immersion therapy.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Post imported post

    Right: Those actions which result innet improved circumstances or conditions without unnecessary destruction.
    I have no problems withthis definition and have enjoyed this discussion. The one thing left out of this definition is what improved circumstances and for who. Let's take the case of the starving war stricken Kenyans (or whoever we want to use for an example) that are dying at an emormous rate from hunger and disease. Would it be of benefit for them to be captured and brought to the US or other developed country to be fed and provided proper health care that they may live a long life but as a slave? This was some of the justification for slavery in America and does go on in parts of the world right now.

    No one should even dare to think that slavery does not exist in the world right now. In some cases it does not improve the lives of those in slavery but in some many people would argue that it does. Is it without necessary destruction? It does remove the freedom that the person has but then we get right back to what freedom did they have before being made a slave.

    Right vs. wrong is always a personal choice based on the societal demands of the person. However in court right vs. wrong is what the court determines and that was the original question. Can a person determine right vs. wrong as defined by the law.

    Maybe the 25 word answer would be - Can a person understand that they are not to break the law?

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